#109 The analytics of PlayStation (with Gabor Mester @ Sony)

[00:00:00] Dan: Welcome back to The Measure Pod. This is episode 109. We recorded this on the 20th of September, 2024 Friday afternoon, the day before MeasureCamp London. So if you’re listening to this, which will be in the future, I’m sure we had a fantastic time, but more importantly, that the conversation we just had with, with, Gabor Mester, who works at Sony X PlayStation, he works in analytics, platform analytics, and wow, what a career, what a story, what an interesting conversation we had.

[00:00:39] Dan: I think we touched on pretty much everything we could ever touch on in the overlap of the Venn diagram of gaming and analytics and PlayStation. What do you think, Bhav? What was your big takeaway from that? 

[00:00:52] Bhav: Oh, this was a good episode. I, I don’t know. It was really nice to speak to Gabor because I think often we have guests on the show who have a wealth of experience in smaller organisations and actually having someone like Gabor who’s been at PlayStation or Sony rather for 13, 14 years share his experience.

[00:01:11] Bhav: And it was, it was, I tried, it’s really hard. Like it was easy to talk purely about gaming and gaming analytics, but actually what I, and I did, I’m glad, I’m glad we did do this. I’m, I wanted to tap into his experience and understand like what piles of wisdom he had to show he could share with, with people who are in the industry you know, early stages of their career, but more importantly, people who are in like mid to late stages of their career, and then looking to step up into kind of like leadership roles.

[00:01:36] Bhav: We just, we just, we haven’t had that on this show before, or at least not since I’ve been recording. So it was nice to be able to. actually get someone share their piles of wisdom. And, and, and Gabor, like, you know, he was fantastic. He’s, he shared so many interesting things about, well, you know, listen and you’ll, you’ll, you’ll hear.

[00:01:53] Dan: Of course. Well let’s oh, I forgot to say I’m Daniel Perry-Reed. I am a principal analytics consultant at Measurelab and you are Bhav Patel, director of experimentation and analytics at LeanConvert. But you may know that. Already. I think the best thing to do is just listen to this episode, listen to what he has to say and to hear his story.

[00:02:09] Dan: I think it’s just incredible. I mean, there’s loads of stuff to do with PlayStation gaming, how the world of Sony works and his new role across all of those different branches. I can’t even imagine the scale of the data that he’s working with and the kind of stuff he’s analysing. But I think what I find fascinating with all this is that We’re all nerds.

[00:02:25] Dan: We’re all data nerds and that doesn’t ever change. We all, we all are the same. Like this is the thing. And it’s, it’s about we’re all really excited and interested in data analytics and what it can do, right. And the power that it can that affords us really in our careers. Before we jump into the episode or at least let the listeners jump in, Bhav, is there anything you’d like to plug, anything you want to share with the audience or promote that you’re working on or doing?

[00:02:46] Bhav: I recently published a blog post, which has gone semi viral. And I’d love to share that more widely and draw awareness around it. I did, I did a piece of analysis on the tech layoffs that have happened across the industry and it’s been, I don’t know, I think it’s really resonated with people because it’s, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s hit nearly like 22,000 impressions a post has, and it’s had like hundreds of engagement levels and been reposted and shared.

[00:03:13] Bhav: And so, I don’t know, I think that’s the thing I want to. It was a passion project. It was a labor of love and I’m really proud to share that with the industry. 

[00:03:21] Dan: Of course. It was a great read. I highly recommend it. I’ll put a link in the show notes along with everything else. The last thing I don’t have anything to plug.

[00:03:27] Dan: I’m just hoping that someone from Sony is listening and wants to send me and Bhav a new PlayStation five pro, then please reach out. I will send you our personal details, our addresses. And of course we will publish it on LinkedIn, which will give you the publicity you need, obviously, because we can make or break PlayStation five.

[00:03:42] Dan: Right. But on a serious note, I’ve got nothing to plug. At the time of recording, we’ve got a measure camp coming up tomorrow. So I dunno, I’m just really excited for that. And yeah, I look forward to seeing you tomorrow in person, Bev. And we are going to be recording our first ever live episode.

[00:03:55] Dan: So we need to figure out what that is. So That’s that’s for another time. We’ll figure that out. In the meantime, enjoy the episode and catch you on the next one.

[00:04:05] Dan: Welcome to the podcast. Please introduce yourself. Say hello and a bit about who you are and what you do in the world of analytics. 

[00:04:11] Gabor: Hi, Bhav and Dan. No, it’s a pleasure to be on the podcast. Very excited to be here to discuss the world of analytics and in particular about PlayStation. I wanted to start with a little shameless Product placement first.

[00:04:23] Gabor: Yeah, there we go. Has that my morning coffee one of two But a bit of history about myself and my tenure at Playstation. I had started with playstation actually, about 13 little over 13 years ago within their video analytics group And I’ve always been based out of Los Angeles. And with that, we were a scrappy young group that focused on our video streaming analytics because we actually had a video business at the time where we rented and sold movies on the platform, much like you see with Walmart’s services that they offer.

[00:04:59] Gabor: We had a competing service. In time, we then expanded into a music streaming business, which was our own music unlimited which then partnered with Spotify. And I was then in charge of running analytics for both our video and music streaming business. And then with time that soon grew to our PS now video game streaming business, where we were streaming games over the internet to play, and I was also in charge of analytics for that.

[00:05:25] Gabor: And then as time progressed our scope increased even further where we were running analytics for PS plus services then our product analytics for our platform. And then finally to our engagement with our studios, where I was meeting with our studios to do studio level insights for the platform.

[00:05:45] Gabor: So it kind of grew over time. And. Just this past year, I had transitioned from PlayStation over to a corporate role within Sony at Sony DX, and I’ll get into a bit more of that later, but it’s been a amazing 13 year run at PlayStation and, and now I get to focus my energies at a different part of the business.

[00:06:08] Bhav: Can I just jump in and express my fanboy moment here for Sony? I have been the biggest Sony fan for the longest time. I’ve had a Sony camcorder, the Sony HDD MP3 player, I’ve had Sony headphones, the Sony PS2, the PS3, the PS4, the PSP Sony digital SLR. And I’ve lost track. So this is a, this is if Dan, you know, this Dan has a Venn diagram. I have my very own Venn diagram. It’s also about Sony technology. 

[00:06:36] Dan: I have to, I have to shout my or profess my love for the PS Vita while it rest in peace. I still use it if I go on long haul flights. And just to do a last bit of product placement, because of how excited I am, I brought out my prize possessions which are my original Final Fantasy six through nine PlayStation one games, which through the world of digital media and things like this, this is the one thing that I’ve kept.

[00:06:56] Dan: I’ve got rid of all my DVDs and everything else. I’ve kept these, these guys, these will never leave my side. So thank you for coming on the show, Gabor. This is just something I’ve been wanting to do and talk about for a long time, which is gaming and analytics and how those two things overlap.

[00:07:08] Dan: And we know each other somewhat Gabor before this. And I know that you work on platform analytics. And so my first question. question really. And just to introduce this, what is platform analytics in the concept of PlayStation? And why is that different to, I don’t know, the analytics that the game developers or someone else would be looking at?

[00:07:25] Gabor: Yeah, no, it’s, it’s a great question because there are nuances from each group within the company and the analytics they focus on. There’s clear distinctions between marketing related analytics for customer activation programs and also for sales of consoles and games. There’s a store analytics team that focuses on in store.

[00:07:45] Gabor: Conversions and awareness for product placement. There’s also a game analytics group, which focuses strictly on in game telemetry and development, and then you have a consumer insights analytics that focuses on what are the reasons that people buy a PlayStation and what are the motivating factors.

[00:08:03] Gabor: And then you also have our platform analytics group, which focuses on console engagement. What are customers doing on the console? You have this world of very tactical insights, but on the console, you’re looking for very much how key trends are playing out over the kingdom. You know, for example, store sales are not going to tell you a lot about engagement.

[00:08:27] Gabor: They’re going to tell you a lot about the sales are people downloading fortnightly, which are free games. Are they doing paid purchases for full games, or are they doing in game spend? It’ll give you a good health check on that. But in terms of who’s playing what titles and how much, that’s really the key of platform analytics.

[00:08:47] Gabor: And it’s a critical role because trends of gameplay engagement really dramatically change over time. The biggest example would be the launch of Fortnite in 2017, which really upended the gaming world because On every console that it was offered, it pretty much took over in terms of attention and focus.

[00:09:07] Gabor: So free to play was launched on the map in a very big way. And battle royale mode was what everybody wanted to take their, their, their chances at. So with that, you saw trends in gaming that slowly changed where now you had other competitors coming out with free to play. And so platform analytics allows you.

[00:09:28] Gabor: Kind of finger on the pulse of what are new console buyers engaging with? What are the new trends of motivating factors of buying a console and how are they spending their first 30 days of engagement split between story driven single player games, online multiplayer or free to play? So these are critical elements to inform leadership about how their consoles are being used. 

[00:09:53] Bhav: So I have a question on this because there is certain tech, this, well, there’s certain parts of the tech world, which I struggled to pull, put together and visualise. What is the technology of tracking something like this? And, in game analytics is one of my favourite ones because I just, it’s an alien world to me.

[00:10:09] Bhav: I think like Dan, we spent most of our time working on things like e-commerce platforms and, and, and, and, you know, and digital web platforms effectively. So is there a GA4? Like, or similar for in game analytics, or do you have, is it all like raw events and like interactions that are happening and do you track, like, are you tracking billions of interactions per second across the world?

[00:10:37] Gabor: Well, I’m not going to get into the technology so to speak, but I think it’s very easy to understand that. Both on the platform and within a game, most every bit of data is being tracked. There is telemetry being fired off for every piece of engagement. And that’s, that’s important because from my interactions with the game analytics group, and this is very much, that’s the same across any studio.

[00:11:02] Gabor: You want to know if people are enjoying your title. You want to know if people are getting stuck at certain levels. You want to make sure that a game is enjoyable. Because ultimately, if a game is not enjoyable, then what’s the point of making it? So in game telemetry has to be very specific and exact at tracking.

[00:11:19] Gabor: So feedback can be given to modify levels, adjust bosses and so on to make it a pleasurable experience or conversely, make it harder, make it more challenging. So these are important feedbacks and much like the platform. There’s a lot of in platform telemetry from the moment that you log in and enter that PSN ecosystem where we are making sure that people are getting the most benefit and enjoyment and excitement out of the console.

[00:11:48] Gabor: I mean, there’s no point in developing a new product if it’s going to be sitting way off to the side and we don’t see it receiving much engagement. But if it’s a product that can actually benefit the customer and Prove their enjoyment. We want to make sure that they’re interacting with it, that they’re extracting enough value from it. And so in game and in console telemetry, it is very critical for a continuous improvement of the gaming experience. 

[00:12:16] Dan: You’ve mentioned a metric there, which I’m a huge fan of. And I love, I love to kind of ask people that mention this kind of stuff. And you said engagement now, now engagement isn’t a universally defined number that everyone can agree on.

[00:12:26] Dan: So when we say engagement, I can be really frustrated and just smash the controller loads. And I’ve highly engaged because I’ve pressed lots of buttons. Or I could be logging in every day for 10 years and I could be engaged that way. So when we talk about things like engagement as a success criteria or metric, like what does that mean in the world of.

[00:12:42] Dan: of platform analytics on the world of PlayStation. How do you define engagement? And is there more to it? Is there like sentiment and positivity and negativity and things like that that go alongside? 

[00:12:53] Gabor: Yeah. Now the Consumer Insights team at PlayStation would be able to answer that more effectively than I in terms of understanding what are the motivations for people coming back and their overall happiness in the console.

[00:13:05] Gabor: Now, It’s almost cheesy to say this, but player enjoyment and excitement truly is in the DNA of the company. That is something that you hear throughout the product teams. It’s a mantra directly from leadership where they’re repeating this, that the only purpose of this engagement is to increase the levels of excitement and enjoyment.

[00:13:27] Gabor: I mean, it’s kind of refreshing. To hear that level of commitment to player enjoyment, and I think that really does wonders at setting PlayStation apart from other consoles. Now in terms of engagement, as you’re referring to on console that I can speak to more in general. I did a lot of analytics that showed onboarding maps of how people generally connected their consoles and what features that they typically used first, second, third, fourth.

[00:13:55] Gabor: Because ultimately. That success node at the end of the journey would be how quickly can they play games because they’re buying a console not to browse around the store or whatnot, but they’re there to play games and they’re there to play hopefully distinct games that are only offered on PlayStation and nowhere else.

[00:14:16] Gabor: So we would measure, you know, what are the features, what are the touch points that people naturally go to first, what are the ones they naturally go to second. So you can envision in your mind this Sankey diagram that shows all the different channels and avenues that people scatter to. And you largely can see what are the larger trends for onboarding.

[00:14:36] Gabor: And if we see something that isn’t as effective, Because we had just launched a new touch point on the console that’s supposed to improve this process for gaming and we don’t see it in that Sankey in a large enough portion, we’ll tinker with it. We’ll experiment on it. We’ll make sure that it goes back for potentially more development or better placement.

[00:14:59] Gabor: So it is front and centre and people are aware that this is something that is intuitively there to help their onboarding experience because we found that that’s a critical part of how we can engage someone in that first early few months of ownership. You know, is it a good experience is a bad experience.

[00:15:16] Gabor: That’s that’s a top of mind. Concern for the business, 

[00:15:21] Bhav: you mentioned Sankey diagrams and I’m curious on something that’s as visual as playing games is the visualisation of that data. Like again, I don’t need trade secrets or anything like that, but how do you communicate effectively what you’re learning out of your analysis of gameplay and engagement and fun? Like, is it bar charts or? Pie charts, or is it Sankey diagrams? Like, how do you communicate something like this?

[00:15:44] Dan: It’ll be PlayStation, PlayStation Towers instead of bars though, I’m afraid. 

[00:15:48] Bhav: Well, yeah, well, this of course, and I just wonder if like, you like, you take a more creative approach to like, communicating insights, because I think this is the thing that I’ve, you know, to me, like gaming, I’m not, not strictly just you know, Sony PlayStation but even like, if I’m playing a game on my phone, like, you know, there’s a game I’m really addicted to called Alto’s Odyssey, and I’m kind of like going through the levels and, and I’m playing, I’m like, how does someone?

[00:16:11] Bhav: How does, how does the team who build this communicate this to the product managers to be able to, is it just, here’s a bar chart of all the players that are playing and, or a histogram of the average play time per session? Like, how do you communicate this type of data? 

[00:16:24] Gabor: The truth is you don’t need to be unbelievably complex in these types of visualisations.

[00:16:31] Gabor: I think simple, You know, for example, if you’re looking at the total monthly active user base in a title and you want to accentuate the growth of it compared to other titles, a simple side by side bar chart can illustrate effectively how much taller something is. So that we don’t have to dive too deep into the complexity of some of these visualisations, because it’s really the messaging comes through very clearly.

[00:16:57] Gabor: If you have a simple enough chart. Sometimes the most simple visualisations are the most effective and a bit of a shameless plug for myself. If you look at my LinkedIn, you can see that there is a rather rapid progression in my growth within the company. And I’d like to think that that growth was because of how well my skill sets were at communicating insights of these visualisations. Having a chart is probably half the battle, but being able to understand effectively what those charts mean and can speak to them in a fashion where messaging is being passed on effectively, that’s also a very important skill set.

[00:17:39] Gabor: And that’s something that I did very much on a monthly basis for our leadership with those charts. 

[00:17:46] Dan: Can I I didn’t want to move straight past that because I think it’s incredible and I’ve seen that trajectory and it’s nothing I don’t, I don’t want to ignore it, but I also want to ask a question that we brought up a couple of minutes ago.

[00:17:55] Dan: So apologies. But I still can’t get my head around the idea of platform analytics marrying up with in game telemetry. How useful is the, the in platform analytics in influencing anything to do with that game design and you mentioned things like increasing level difficulty, scaling it down, those kind of things, because one would imagine unless they’re part of the PlayStation Studios, they’re probably going to have a better relationship with you to understand the kind of The connection of all that data.

[00:18:22] Dan: But let’s take any, any game that’s published on the store. Like how is that used or how much of it is used in isolation? I’m just wondering like that joining two big data sets is a big job for anyone in any industry. And I’m wondering like how, how. useful? Is it joining these two different data sets across those?

[00:18:42] Gabor: The most obvious method that platform analytics can help influence game design. It’s not necessarily about marrying the two data sets together. It doesn’t really influence too much about platform analytics of what’s happening in-game. I would say the most effective means that platform analytics can help is that we have a platform view of what the engagement is.

[00:19:07] Gabor: Let’s take the example of free to play game engagement. We can see that a certain percentage of the platform engages within free to play titles. We can see a certain percentage is transacting in game spend within free to play titles. And at a very fundamental level, you’re able to see, establish KPIs of what are the platform conversion rates of gameplay but also of in game spend, and what are the drop off rates of people that play a game in month one, but then fall off month two, month three, and how those platform level KPIs can establish a baseline to help guide game studios.

[00:19:46] Gabor: So if a game is coming out from our studios, that’s a free to play. You now have some metrics that you potentially could understand. Well, how are we performing against the platform? Are we over an indexing? Are we under indexing? At that level, it helps the performance. And that feedback can go and help if there’s new content coming out for that title, which can support helping those platform level engagements.

[00:20:12] Gabor: So some of the examples that. We would see is you know, there were title launches like Anthem. Anthem was not a PlayStation launch, but it was a pretty big key launch that didn’t do so well. And I think universally it didn’t find success on any platform, but if you can look very publicly at what content was being released for it, it didn’t have a lot of content post launch and you could immediately Build a picture that in that example, it didn’t have a lot of post launch content to support its growth.

[00:20:47] Gabor: And that seemed to have resulted in a bit faster of a demise and less traction. So there’s learnings you can have from other titles, even in the industry off our console that can guide our own title development. 

[00:21:02] Bhav: I remember seeing something similar to what you just described in the Netflix space, where the way that they would select series to fund or what they think is going to do well was based on a whole bunch of signals of what other shows and platforms are doing.

[00:21:17] Bhav: And I remember there was a, there was an example of a platform on Netflix, there was House of Cards, but then on Prime, there was a very similar program. And House of Cards did really well, but the other one didn’t do so well. And they, they were, I remember reading some type of analysis to understand why these two very similar identical TV series were both produced, but one did better than the other.

[00:21:37] Bhav: And it was just, it’s, I don’t know when you were talking about it it just, it kind of got me thinking about this. 

[00:21:41] Dan: Don’t tell me you’re going to say marketing works, Bhav. Jesus. 

[00:21:45] Bhav: Yeah, I think I’m going to say marketing works. 

[00:21:49] Gabor: You know, sometimes there are X factors like the zeitgeist that control and influence the games, right? It could take something as simple as a, as a Reddit post that gathers steam that can sink a ship. So sometimes it’s not so easy to explain, but other times it just comes down to solid game development and exciting, engaging stories. Thanks. 

[00:22:11] Bhav: Just maybe just moving away from this very slightly talk about the change over the last 13, 14 years at PlayStation. Well, how’s, how things evolved in on platform analytics? Obviously you see, you know, like processing power has become better. Cloud computing cloud data warehousing has become better. So, you know, you use, have you, have you been utilising machine learning from day one? Or is this something that’s changed over the last few years? Like what’s that evolution been like? 

[00:22:40] Gabor: Yeah, you know, when I first started, it was just at the tail end of the PS3, and we were a year out from the PS4 launching, so it was, it was quite an exciting time, because with the PS3, that was our first console that was truly online, with an online store, we were doing commerce and we had just really become quite comfortable with how to engage people with transactions and This online world with the PS4, we were able to further develop that with kind of that Facebook type front page.

[00:23:14] Gabor: That was very popular with the PS4 launch. How you had all your friends and what they were doing on the, on the front login screen, if you can remember. And then it progressed into the PS5 where it just became more connected with. How you see your friends and what they’re playing. Can you jump in on a game invited to a party that they’re having for a gameplay?

[00:23:34] Gabor: So all of that takes a lot of data science and machine learning to support. And there’s a lot of behind the scenes work that is very sophisticated that goes into how these products are developed. For example, for just the product development group that I led that was developing. are actually guiding product teams on which products they should prioritise for development.

[00:23:59] Gabor: And once they were launched, how do you measure their performance? And there was a lot of experimentation that went into deciding which designs were better when they should be sent back when they should be deprioritized for development. So they do a lot of behind the scenes heavy lifting to make those decisions.

[00:24:16] Gabor: So yes PlayStation has always been very involved. and very analytical data science to help evolve the product. 

[00:24:25] Dan: So is it just becoming more and bigger than that, is that the big change? Is it just more is more like, cause I’m thinking maybe if I can add on to bad thing, it’s like, especially in the last couple of years with like AI.

[00:24:37] Dan: Essentially kind of changing how we use and query data. I think it’s just changed so much in the last couple of years. And wow, I just imagine where that’s going to go and how that’s going to be integrated. Maybe not necessarily the generative AI aspect, because that’s the kind of worms that we weren’t open, especially in terms of creativity and game design.

[00:24:53] Dan: But from a data perspective, as it’s kind of quite, quite revolutionary. 

[00:24:57] Gabor: Yes, it’s safely to say that PlayStation is very much involved in A. I. Development. This is something that has swept everywhere, and it’s something that’s been in conversation for quite some time. I find it even more surprising as I switched to a corporate role within Sony that I’ve been exposed to a lot more deeper A.

[00:25:20] Gabor: I. That’s been going on for much longer than I even anticipated. And it’s been a bit of a, a kid in a toy store as I’m seeing all these products that are out there that I had no idea even existed, but are there really cranking the levers and turning the gears behind the scenes for, for quite some time on really some very serious AI development that’s been going on. 

[00:25:44] Bhav: I mean, AI in the game space has been around forever, right? Like we’ve bounced between AI machine learning into like our world, but actually in the game space, it’s always been there. Because when I think about AI, we talk about the computer’s AI. So, you know, and you can have that, like that difficulty setting on, are you playing on easy mode? And I think we used to call it AI, but I don’t know if that’s how you still refer to it. 

[00:26:05] Dan: NPCs walking around a town, you know, that’s AI. 

[00:26:08] Bhav: Yeah. And I don’t know if that’s still how it’s classified. And actually has that become like more closer to AI than like the original versions when I remember playing.

[00:26:19] Bhav: But yeah, like that evolved, like evolution. So in AI, AI comes in so many different flavours in terms of, you know, understanding user buying behaviour, but actually within the gaming space, actually talking about really interesting stuff, like how closely we can make the computer act like a really good player versus a really bad player.

[00:26:37] Gabor: Yeah, I’m, that’s, that’s a bit of in-game development that I don’t have much insight into. So I can’t really speak to that too heavily, but I would imagine that it’s safe to say that most any studio on planet earth is looking for how to integrate AI into their game development. 

[00:26:57] Dan: Oh, for sure. Well, can we zoom out then a bit Gabor? So as you mentioned, you kind of move into this corporate role, you go into Sony, then all of a sudden the orders of magnitude are that much bigger. You’re working across. I mean. How, how many different Sony departments and then your, your role of analytics across that, what does, what does analytics look like at that scale? Like what happens there? Like what’s what’s the remit, like what’s the scope and what’s the focus? 

[00:27:20] Gabor: No, that, that’s a, that’s a great question because it’s been, a bit of a, you know climbing to the mountaintop and getting a much higher elevation view of the surrounding landscape in this role. I went from working inside PlayStation with their different services to now suddenly engaging with Sony Music Publishing, Sony Music Entertainment, Sony Music Masterworks, Sony Pictures Entertainment, Sony Electronics and PlayStation.

[00:27:46] Gabor: So I now engage all of our Sony groups and there is a, a, a very strong interest in thinking more holistically of analytics across all of these touch points. And really it, it, it makes sense because these are all very strong companies in their own right. And I think now. And it’s not just starting with me, but this is something that’s been going on for some time.

[00:28:14] Gabor: There’s increased demand for a holistic cross company view of analysis and how companies can leverage the strengths of each other to, to focus their entertainment value across multiple companies. Because after all, Sony is, is a, is a wonderful entertainment company that has so many touch points across the, the, the entertainment landscape.

[00:28:40] Gabor: So it would make sense that we don’t just play games, but we also listen to music. We also watch TV. We also watch movies. So we are very much involved in, in all of these different entertainment touch points. So why not try to do a better job of connecting all of these users? 

[00:28:57] Bhav: It’d be remiss of me not to ask this question. So, well, recently Dan and I recorded an episode about progressing your career analytics in a senior, in a more senior role. And how does one go about doing that? And like, what are the skills one needs to develop? And, you know, it, I think it’d be really great to understand what you just described is not accessible to every single data person in the world.

[00:29:20] Bhav: So imagine you’re facing a problem like what you just described where you’re trying to connect analytics across. a multitude of different products and sub companies within Sony. How do you start solving a problem like that? Like, where do you start thinking about it? And again, don’t need the specifics, but like, how do you take a problem as big as that and Approach it and try to solve it across a massive company like Sony, right?

[00:29:46] Gabor: Sure. I mean, ultimately it boils down to being able to highlight the business value. People are not going to do things out of the kindness of their own heart. But there has to be some business value supporting it. And that could mean looking not so much focused on a particular company, but being able to demonstrate that.

[00:30:08] Gabor: One company can really benefit multiple other companies in a certain space that helps their bottom line. And if you can do that successfully. Then you are suddenly now prioritised on their roadmap because now they want to work and develop this cross company connection because their revenues will increase as a result.

[00:30:28] Gabor: So being able to formulate this type of engagement with that as the motivating factor and the ultimate goal does wonders. And I think having. A certain level of experience within the business helps visualise those opportunities in my mind, at least challenges abound. Yeah, but I think it’s something that isn’t going to happen overnight, but it’s something that needs to kind of be introduced very slowly and bank some easy wins that can demonstrate the value to other groups.

[00:31:04] Gabor: So I think it’s ultimately something that most any company wants to position themselves. in to leverage the entire data landscape and not be so siloed. 

[00:31:15] Dan: What does the low hanging fruit look like in the situation of Sony? Like how, how does, how does one scale low hanging fruit to the size of something like that?

[00:31:24] Gabor: I think the most obvious would be Just through marketing activation. I think that’s the most exciting vanity number out there. What is the net that you can cast as big as you can to capture the most people in marketing campaigns? And I think that’s The most intuitive first step. We have a very captive entertainment audience across companies.

[00:31:49] Gabor: And by simply focusing very strong messaging that says, Hey, we know that you enjoy movies and not just games, but are you aware that there are these other entertainment touch points that are very much on target for your interests? These are not things that are just spam, but this is something that you genuinely would enjoy. And I think that’s the first step in this process. 

[00:32:14] Bhav: So in your, again, in your experience and expertise, how, what are the skills you’ve had to develop over the course of your career to get to this point where I was looking, obviously you started off as a software engineer not to make it sound old school, but many years ago.

[00:32:29] Bhav: And then you’ve transitioned into kind of like BI and then you transitioned and again and again and again to this point where you’re now, you know, looking holistically across all Sony platforms. Like what, what. In your view has changed most by yourself and what skills did you feel like you needed to develop to be able to get there?

[00:32:45] Gabor: Yeah. You know, honestly, when I was doing software development I, I loved programming. I always enjoyed it. I almost compared it to playing with Legos, how you could build anything you want and the sky’s the limit. But I really had a very strong interest in the business world. So I created a five year plan where I applied for business school came out and I wanted to transition into analytics because I wanted to combine that blend of technical background with business acumen into analytics because being so heavy in the technical, you, you kind of miss some of the business messaging.

[00:33:22] Gabor: And I wanted to develop that skillset further than myself. And so what were the skills that made me more successful? I mean, ultimately it’s, it’s down to internal motivation. About how, how hard you want to push yourself to learn. I remember just in my first year many, many late nights and weekends, just learning all the data assets within PlayStation and just pushing myself to learn to really separate and distinguish myself from everyone else, putting myself out there with my own analysis that I would hear from execs that these were points of interest, kind of doing them on my own and sending them out.

[00:34:01] Gabor: And it got a lot of traction and it started to develop a brand about my involvement. And actually, I remember when I did a piece on music for Music Unlimited, I got an invitation from Tim Schaaf, who was our president of PlayStation at the time to fly to San Mateo and do a readout to him at his office.

[00:34:19] Gabor: So that was kind of the first time I saw that, Hey, this, this is meaningful and people are taking notice. And I just continued that behaviour of just being very motivated, listening for what were the opportunities in the business that people were talking about and just doing them in my own time, developing these insights and sending them out.

[00:34:41] Bhav: So initiative and ownership are kind of like the two takeaways there. And I have just on a follow up thing. Do you think, because one question I get asked a lot from people who want to go, you know, progress on the on the analytics and data career ladder. And one of the biggest questions I guess asked is how important is technical knowledge.

[00:34:59] Bhav: And should I learn everything there’s to know about data engineering, about machine learning, about data science, about you name it. And I think And my answer generally is, and I’m, I’m a, I’m a practitioner. I, you know, I code SQL, I look at reports, I build reports, I do analysis, you know, I’m a, I consider myself a practitioner, but I also try to spend some time doing strategy and all the things that makes me a director of my role.

[00:35:22] Bhav: I, I, I really struggled to answer this question of like, how much technical knowledge do you need to have to be able to progress? And I, you know, it’s rare for us to have someone of your experience and tenure come onto the platform onto, onto the measure, measure pod. for us to be able to ask. I’d love to hear your view on this, like technical leadership versus non technical.

[00:35:42] Gabor: Yeah, no, it’s a, it’s a great question. And, and really. As you progress your career and you are levelling up, you find yourself less hands on with the technical because the business doesn’t want you as a director, senior director 50 percent of your time doing SQL. They would rather you guide the analysis and find what are the insights you should be going after.

[00:36:08] Gabor: So there’s obviously. With the levelling, you see a bit of that hands on tapering off. But I would say, you know, having that understanding of what the data asset is, that never, that never leaves, no matter how high you go. If you want to be a hands-on leader, you always need to know what are the tools that are available to you.

[00:36:28] Gabor: You know, that could be from either insights tools knowing what types of new visualisation dashboards are available, but always something that I Anytime new data assets were available, no matter what role I was in, I always did an onboarding to understand what our capabilities were. That should never leave your belt of tools because having that knowledge is what helps drive conversations.

[00:36:56] Gabor: If you are unaware, and you’re always having to go back to your team to ask questions, kind of abruptly curtails what could have been very interesting conversations with your stakeholders. So having that knowledge that really provides organic conversations that are very in the moment and you can’t really replicate those easily.

[00:37:15] Gabor: So, yeah, while you might not be hands on programming or SQL, always knowing your product, always knowing the data at your disposal is critical. 

[00:37:24] Dan: How do you this might just be more of a profound question, but how do you keep up? How do you stay on top of the evolving landscapes at a scale, which we’re talking about in terms of Sony? So, you know, we talked about the kind of technical the specific technical skills, maybe kind of like settles down a bit and, and, and whatever, as we, as we kind of widen our scope, but when you’re saying about kind of always being aware of like, what’s going on in the industry and within the business and stuff, like what’s, what’s your method, what’s your method of, of kind of having that finger in those many pies?

[00:37:51] Gabor: I would say as you progress up the food chain, always maintaining very strong networks is also very key. No one operates in a vacuum. You need to have Very strong allies at a company. You need to have good friendships. You need to have very good business relationships. Once you develop that you have, you know, for example, I would do monthly check ins with marketing, with consumer insights, with store teams, always understanding what is happening within these businesses, our industry research group.

[00:38:26] Gabor: I would always have these check-ins because You need to be naturally curious. You need to be able to have that itch that always needs to be scratched where you know which groups you need to focus on for that data. So having very solid networks and, and by the way, I always tell. members of the team.

[00:38:45] Gabor: Don’t just listen to me and don’t just listen to the people sitting next to you, but go out, be fearless, connect with your peers and other groups, develop your own networks. Because as you can see, many of my peers that were once at PlayStation, they’re now sitting leading gaming at Netflix. They’re now at Apple leading gaming.

[00:39:03] Gabor: They’re now at other key roles in the industry that are now your professional network going forward. So it always helps to develop that. 

[00:39:10] Dan: It’s my biggest piece of advice whenever anyone asks me is be curious. Like just if your curiosity dies, then everything else follows, right? 

[00:39:18] Gabor: Exactly. One of my, it almost looks a bit of a junior level role. But when I moved over to corporate, the first thing I did was get my data warehouse access and start redrawing all the schemas in my own Miro dashboard. So I could visually see everything. And this giant sheet, because The first thing I have to take my own advice here is understand the data and I need to know what are we getting from every company so I can understand that landscape to help drive conversation.

[00:39:52] Bhav: Do you miss it? Do you miss hands-on problem solving? And because I think this is the thing that I, I’d miss the most. Like I’ve done. Where I’ve been completely analytics and I’ve done I’ve been completely a director and sometimes I like all like leadership and in between my current role is kind of in between which is kind of nice but I’m only doing it as we continue to build the service and ideally you’ll taper off at some point where I’m not as hands on anymore.

[00:40:13] Bhav: But there’s a part of me that yearns for solving a problem, like something to sink my teeth into and try and approach it because such like, I think people underestimate how creative the data space can be and being an analyst or an analyst or data scientist or whatever is a very creative process.

[00:40:30] Gabor: Yeah. I mean, yeah. I miss the hands-on PlayStation work because I love PlayStation. I mean, it’s just a great product. When you’re passionate about a product, your work really shines that much more. And it shows, it shows, and it’s such a, A tangible insight work because you are engaging with the console.

[00:40:51] Gabor: You know what the game hub is, you know what this title is, you see it in the data because you’ve also played it. So having that very hands-on engagement with the tools made it that much more worthwhile and fulfilling from my point of view. So, yeah, I, I do miss that piece of it. I still get some visibility into that space in my new role, but it’s not quite as detailed or hands on. 

[00:41:17] Dan: If you set up a Google BigQuery export from Google Analytics 4, and you’re not really sure what to do with it. It’s your first time using the GCP, then give us a shout. We’re here to help. We’re GCP certified, GMP certified. And of course I can’t stop talking about Google analytics for, so we’re here to help you make the most out of that data and show you exactly how powerful it can be.

[00:41:35] Dan: The world of cloud databases and the Google cloud platform can be complex and overwhelming at times, but ultimately it’s there to serve a purpose and to make the most out of the data you have, you can reach out to us by scanning this QR code, or you can click the link in the show notes to find out more, or you can just head over to measure lab.

[00:41:51] Dan: co. uk and find out a bit more of what we’re about. Gabor, before we start winding things down, just re appreciating the time, is there anything that we didn’t ask or talk about that you would like to, that we could put back into the episode and as a question for you? 

[00:42:09] Gabor: Well, one, I want to give a big shout out to Jim Ryan, ex president of PlayStation. Wonderful man, great leader for connecting us. It was his introduction that brought me here. So I wanted to give a big shout out to him. Two, I want to acknowledge both of your sacrifices for doing a podcast on a Friday afternoon when you should be in a pub. So that’s an amazing commitment on your level.

[00:42:34] Dan: Well meet me and Bhav, we’ve got this big conference tomorrow that we’re going to, and it’s like an 8 a. m. until 8 p. m. kind of vibe. So we’re saving ourselves for tomorrow. For those that are listening that are in the UK, we’re going to measure camp London tomorrow. So it’s essentially analytics Christmas over here.

[00:42:49] Gabor: No, you guys are very committed. And I think that was one of the easiest decisions to come on the podcast because I love people that are very passionate. About what they talk about and it shows, it shows you can’t, you can’t fake that. I would say that some of the things that are nice call outs, you know, we live in, in a very rapidly changing gaming world.

[00:43:13] Gabor: We see titles being launched that are trying to address the changing trends of gameplay. And that is something that. That PlayStation is, is always looking at and live service is one of the biggest gaming trends that we’ve seen over the past couple of years. And so being able to observe live service engagement on a platform and then inform studios and leadership about how that should influence future gaming is a big one.

[00:43:46] Gabor: Naughty Dog, for example. I think we all are very aware that there was a Last of Us online game title in development and you could also read that they cancelled development of that title. This is not just me saying secrets, but that’s, that’s publicly out there. We were actively helping them understand what was the appetite for a Last of Us online title.

[00:44:09] Gabor: You know, that was something that I worked with Evan Wells and team on, on understanding what was something that their user base would enjoy. Would you be alienating a hardcore story driven single player gamer by introducing online elements to a title? And we were able to help analyse platform engagement and help influence.

[00:44:33] Gabor: Some of those decisions that they made for online development. It’s unfortunate that they stopped but I think it’s important that You know They maintained the core values of what the last of us meant to the user and I think they were doing a really great job of maintaining 

[00:44:49] Dan: I mean, could I could I ask I mean, I don’t know if you’re able to answer but like, What’s the kind of data you provided them that suggested it was a good way to go?

[00:44:56] Dan: And then, do you know what happened that made them pull the plug essentially to go against the analysis? Because we’ve all been there, right? As analysts, we’ve all given analysis. We might have poured blood, sweat and tears into something that says to do one thing, and then they do the opposite. And it is a bit of a knife to the heart as an analyst, but do you know why that was made? Like what kind of swayed it that way and then backwards again? 

[00:45:19] Gabor: The platform analytics that was able to help that decision making was essentially platform analytics. The key definition is once a user stops playing the last of us or uncharted, what are they doing on the console? What else are they doing?

[00:45:34] Gabor: And we were able to identify profiles of users that essentially said, you know what, ultimately many of your users are are engaging in online gameplay. This is not a foreign concept and who would expect it to be. People are not just exclusively playing offline story driven games, but it’s a healthy mixture of many touch points.

[00:45:57] Gabor: And we were able to demonstrate that many of the online strategies they were hoping to deliver on were in fact On target for a very large part of their audience. And so that gave them the confidence to move forward with an online game development, because they saw that they would not be ultimately alienating their customer base.

[00:46:19] Gabor: Now I would challenge a comment you made that it’s not really heartbreaking for the analysts, but I would think the developers. that spent all that time. Many missed dinners and missed times with families that see their work go away. So my heart goes out to them. I can’t really comment on why the title was taken off, but I would imagine that it wasn’t an easy decision. I would assume that a lot of thought went into that decision. 

[00:46:48] Dan: Hmm. Of course. Yeah I mean, there’s always humans behind everything, right? Often with the kind of the, the, the publicity in the media, it’s often like the corporation has decided, but they’re just humans making tough decisions and you’re never going to get it right.

[00:47:02] Bhav: And I think this is the core thing. And I always try to explain this to people as an analyst, the best you can do is advise if you want to be a decision maker. You need to change careers because as an analytics function, you’re, you’re, you’re effectively playing the role of an advisor, you know, but at the end of the day, the decision making lies with someone else.

[00:47:22] Bhav: And it’s, it’s, you know, you can’t take it too personally, despite my, all my LinkedIn jokes about stakeholders and poor decision making it, you know, I, I would much, I like my role. I like that. I’m able to advise and make decisions, but I was fundamentally understand that. Someone has to make the decision and it’s not always easy and sometimes it’s not going to Be in line with what the analysis recommends and sometimes you have to look bigger than that and beyond that and And also so by the way, I remembered what game it was on the playstation 3 that go on It was a resistance full of man.

[00:47:52] Dan: Ah, one of my favourite games. I spent so many hours on that in co op mode That was my university life was a co op mode resistance For the whole time. And Tom, he’s not going to be listening, but he’s a guy I lived with for about five years. We clocked up well over hundreds of hours in that game. 

[00:48:08] Bhav: So Resistance Fall of Man was my gateway into FPSs on PlayStation. Because after that, after that Call of Duty came out and I know that’s not a first party title in a way. Then Call of Duty changed my life. Because up until that point, I don’t even spend most of my time playing Pro Evolution Soccer on, on, on, on the PS2. 

[00:48:30] Gabor: Resistance is the one where the spores infected the humans? No, no. Here’s a throwback. Back when 3D TVs were a thing, I had a 3D TV with the little active goggles, and I would play Resistance in 3D. Because it was enabled for that. It was, I, I was so excited to play it, but I don’t think we were ready for that yet. It was too, too soon. 

[00:48:57] Bhav: Oh, that game. Honestly, that game changed my life. And that’s when I fell in love with the PlayStation. 

[00:49:01] Dan: So there’s a, there’s a very, this is another reason why I love the PS Vita, right? There was a resistance burning skies, a resistance game for the PS Vita that was made directly for it. And it was so underrated because it. I don’t think it was, so it was so good.

[00:49:13] Dan: I loved it. Anyway. I think we’ve, we’ve wasted enough of your time. Gabor talking about video games. Not that you don’t like it, but I, more importantly, I have three rapid fire questions for you to wind us down towards the end of the episode. 

[00:49:25] Bhav: So we don’t normally do this by the way Gabor, but if Dan, if you don’t ask some, two questions that I have or one question, I’m going to, you might have more rapid fire questions because there’s a couple of games, there’s a couple of questions that I have.

[00:49:36] Dan: Okay, fine. Well, look, this is we’re with both hosts of this show. You ask as many questions. So I programmed a chat bot into a bit of information about you in terms of your role, your background, where you’ve worked and what we were doing on the podcast. And so it has given me three rapid fire questions now to some less or, or greater or less successes in the past.

[00:49:54] Dan: So question number one: what’s the most surprising insight that you uncovered through data analytics at PlayStation? 

[00:49:59] Gabor: I don’t know if I can comment on that. That’s oh jeez, I really can’t comment on that. 

[00:50:03] Dan: Okay, fair enough. We’ll give you a pass. 

[00:50:05] Gabor: That’s such a cop out, I’m sorry. 

[00:50:08] Dan: No, no, no, it’s all good, we get it. We’d rather publish an episode with that statement than have to redact it later on. Okay, two Can you share a memorable insight where your data analytics directly influenced a major decision in the gaming experience of PlayStation? 

[00:50:21] Gabor: During the Microsoft acquisition that was being challenged, if you recall that happening. Jim was actually in Brussels. He was in the UK parliament. He was speaking to many government heads testifying to why this was bad for business. And I had a team that actually was assisting him and had legal counsel for those discussions. So we were sitting here at this very desk.

[00:50:50] Gabor: I believe it was. 10 p. m. through four in the morning assisting as those discussions were happening in the parliament and in Brussels. So that’s the kind of data we’re providing about platform engagement about what the touch points are that are most effective as talking points. In those discussions. So that was a very real tangible example. Did they work? Ultimately no, but there were trying to provide platform engagement at the all hours of the night. 

[00:51:21] Dan: But it did, it did a dent though. Like it, it puts them back a couple of months to, almost a year, right? Like it was, it was a long time that that was in sort of conversation for, and that was, this was the Activision Blizzard King deal, right?

[00:51:33] Gabor: Correct. Correct. Correct. This was you know, platform analytics helped with very good informative talking points to help drive that discussion. Yes. 

[00:51:43] Bhav: Dan, I want to ask my question before you ask yours, because I can, I can see your questions and my ones aren’t on there. Mine are way more interesting. Okay. My first question, Gabor, outside of the Sony PlayStation range, what is your favourite console? 

[00:51:58] Gabor: Oh, I mean, PC, does that count? 

[00:52:02] Bhav: No, that’s, that’s a cop out answer. Hopefully you have two cop outs in one go. 

[00:52:06] Dan: You’re going to start some feuds, Bhav, if you don’t let PC count. 

[00:52:09] Bhav: I know, I know, but I’m going to, I’m sorry. I’m going to stick to my guns on this one. All right. By the way, it can be an old one as well. Like it could be like an Amiga from like, it doesn’t matter as long as it’s not, it can’t be a PC. 

[00:52:19] Gabor: Well, what’s the difference? I did have an Amiga actually. So that was. Back in high school and that I would qualify as a PC, but I would say this. I’ve played Xbox. I played Nintendo. I think they’re all fantastic consoles. I think they, they all, I mean, this is going to sound like a total cop out answer, but all of these consoles strive to provide the best gaming engagement. I don’t care if people play any of these consoles, I think just the love and enjoyment of gameplay is what’s key.

[00:52:47] Gabor: And I just, I’m very happy when. Xbox has a success when Nintendo has a success as well as PlayStation because that just promotes great excitement and engagement with gameplay. So I’ve played them all and I thought they all were great. I’ve got nothing bad to say about any of these consoles. 

[00:53:03] Bhav: No, no. I mean, that’s a very wholesome answer. I wasn’t asking for bad. It’s just like, which one do you like outside of obviously the PlayStation? 

[00:53:08] Gabor: I think they all have their qualities. They all have their great qualities. 

[00:53:11] Dan: What’s yours, Bhav? Go on. Bhav, no, you, you had something lined up here. What was your answer? 

[00:53:15] Bhav: Oh, no place. Like the pla, like the PS3 for me is my all time favourite console. As actually I’m torn the PS two and the PS three because they, for me, were incredible. My first official, my Gaines console was the mega, the Sega Mega Drive, which I loved. The Dreamcast I had was incredible. I had a six N 64, which was great, but I think.

[00:53:36] Bhav: The PS2 and then the PS3, they rocked my world. And I just, I still have them both. So they were probably my favourite consoles of all time. 

[00:53:46] Dan: Anyway, you had one more question, Bhav. 

[00:53:51] Bhav: What is your all time favourite game? 

[00:53:54] Gabor: Oh my goodness. Ooh. 

[00:53:57] Bhav: You can have three if you can’t decide, but. 

[00:53:59] Dan: Are you going, are you going to an individual game or franchise? Sorry, I’m going to try and answer this as well. 

[00:54:04] Bhav: If you know, if your answer is like Final Fantasy six, seven and eight, whatever, then just say Final Fantasy. But if you have an individual game, 

[00:54:12] Gabor: Yes. So one of my most favourites was a more recent one goes to Tsushima. Like that one really. I mean, the, the, the, the, the landscapes inside the game, the world building was just gorgeous. And I think that was just such a captivating game for me that I couldn’t stop playing it. I love that one. From childhood. This is a total random call. I don’t know if you remember this, you’ll have to Google it. It was called Herzog’s view. It’s a, it’s a game that was kind of a real time you against an opponent building bases throughout a map and whoever controlled the most bases and built tanks to defend those bases and missile launchers.

[00:54:54] Gabor: That was, I think the first game I just went like just nutty for beyond the game gear, but that was a key title. And oh man, and with kids, three kids, we’ve really adopted more family friendly titles in the house because you can’t really play GTA five with the kids around that’s, that’s not, at least not yet.

[00:55:15] Gabor: Not yet. Yeah. We see a bunch of that in Los Angeles as it is. I don’t need to bring it into the house. But stray, I, I adored the game stray. That was one of my favourites of the year. It was one of these. More compact games, about 14 hours of gameplay, but that one was just phenomenal. And of course the Uncharted series that was just a fantastic one. Uncharted 4 was just wonderful. There’s, there’s, there’s so many games. There’s so many games. 

[00:55:42] Bhav: I know. It’s a really hard question. What’s yours, Pat? What’s yours? If I had to narrow it down, strategies, Command and Conquer, Red Alert 2 yeah. FPS is Call of Duty Modern Warfare. 

[00:55:53] Dan: You didn’t, you didn’t, you didn’t specify breakdowns by category before. You have to pick one. 

[00:56:01] Bhav: Oh, if I have to pick one, this is a tough one. I’m going to go with Modern Warfare purely based on the amount of hours I wasted through university playing it. So I’m going to go with that. But I really enjoyed Command and Conquer, Red Alert 2 on the PC, which I know I said no PCs, but I like these rules for other people. Yeah. These rules are for Gabor. These are not rules for me. 

[00:56:22] Gabor: Well, mind you, I’ve got about 400 hours of Held Ivers 2 gameplay, and I didn’t even mention that, but yet there I am every night, like therapy, playing a match before bedtime. 

[00:56:32] Bhav: Well, like Mario Kart is another one that will obviously come to mind. And so there’s so many, I just, it’s hard to pick. 

[00:56:39] Dan: Yeah, for sure. Mine is has to be Doom 2 from 1994, by the way. I’ve clocked up maybe a thousand hours in that. Every time they re-release it, I go through it again and complete it. I just, it’s all, you know, if I turn my Steam Deck on right now, it’s, it’s in the middle of the game.

[00:56:52] Dan: Like it’s just, that’s my game. That’s my kind of like trashy TV show, right? That’s my, I just need something to switch off. So anyway, what a revolutionary game. Okay. Well, I think the last question I have for you, Gabor, is what do you like to do outside of work when you’re not thinking about analytics at Sony to wind down, to escape from all this, all this stuff?

[00:57:12] Gabor: Oh my gosh. Well tonight I’m taking the kids to go see a Dodgers game. So that’s going to be a fun one. So we’re going to do a little family time there. Beyond that, I love to work on my car. That, that seems to be the American hobby of tinkering with your car and kind of home mechanics.

[00:57:27] Gabor: So I enjoy that. It’s a nice time to escape and have alone time and just work through a problem that you can solve most of the time. 

[00:57:37] Dan: Do you know what, this is something that I, I talk about often to my peers and colleagues is like, often I like to do something. I used to work on bars and I used to love working in the bar because it’s something you could, you can do.

[00:57:48] Dan: People appreciate it and they can see what’s happening is any kind of craft or hobby cooking is another one. When you work in analytics, especially with data, with the infinite scale that you’re talking about, like no one really understands what you’re doing and there’s no proof of it. Do you know what I mean?

[00:58:00] Dan: Like, there’s nothing to show your friends or family to say, look what I made. So yeah, these, these kinds of things, I, I think we get more so than other people. 

[00:58:08] Gabor: Isn’t, isn’t that true? I kind of equate that to my affinity for just doing house cleaning. I love it. That you can actually. Check off that.

[00:58:16] Gabor: I cleaned this. I did that. And you can see you’ve made a difference. I find that extremely relaxing. Yeah, to my wife’s benefit. 

[00:58:23] Dan: Maybe it’s the fact that our to-do lists are never done because of the things we’re working on like months and years of initiatives, whereas something as easy as wash up is like achievable, it’s like the satisfaction. 

[00:58:34] Gabor: Honest truth, brutal, honest, truth. 

[00:58:35] Dan: Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us on this. And thanks for the extra time we’ve taken from you before we end the episode. Is there anything you’d like to plug or shout out or anywhere people can connect with you if they want to reach out to you or ask you questions?

[00:58:48] Gabor: Yeah, no. I always try to make myself available on LinkedIn. I don’t like to ignore people unless you’re a marketer, but please, if anyone ever wants to discuss, I know it’s, I should probably not say it, but I because I just like to have good, honest discussions. Feel free to reach out. Your podcast is amazing. Thank you both very much for the invitation. 

[00:59:07] Dan: Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

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