#118 Dan & Bhav’s farewell, best moments & a game of guess who

[00:00:00] Dan: Welcome to a very special episode of The Measure Pod. This is episode 118. I’m Daniel Perry-Reed. I am an analytics consultant here at Measurelab. As always, I’m joined by Bhav Patel, director of Experimentation and Analytics at LeanConvert. But as a special treat and more information on this shortly, Dara Fitzgerald, welcome back.

[00:00:36] Dara: It’s good to, it’s good to be back. Hopefully the listeners will remember me, but yeah, I used to, I used to sit in this chair and, yeah, it used to be regular parts of it, so they’ve, I’m, I’m, I’m back. 

[00:00:48] Bhav: Yeah, he’s back and I think our listeners are probably wondering why he’s back. And I think this is where it’s probably important to get that into the intro part before we move on to the episode.

[00:00:56] Bhav: Right. 

[00:00:56] Dan: Well, yeah, you are quite right Bhav. And that is, it’s mine. And your last appearance on the measure pod after. many episodes, maybe me, a couple more than you have, under your belt, bhav. But nevertheless, both of us are saying goodbye to the measure pods and Dara. We’ve dusted him off, pulling him back out of retirement, to take over and continue running the Measure pods.

[00:01:20] Dan: The Measure Pod is not going anywhere. Me and Bhav are taking a step back. and Dara, I mean, I suppose it’s over to you. I mean, do you want to finish up the intro as it’s now your, your thing, your baby, your project to run with now? 

[00:01:33] Dara: I mean, I was going to start by saying I’m still dusty. I don’t think I’ve been dusted off completely.

[00:01:38] Dara: it might, it, it, it might, it might take a while. but this was a really, yeah, this was a really fun way to, to get back onto the, onto the show. So I don’t want to give too much away, but I put you guys through your paces a little bit in this episode, which I thoroughly enjoyed. It’s been a long time coming.

[00:01:54] Dara: and then we had a really nice, a really nice chat as well, which was also fun, but less interesting than the, you know, 

[00:02:01] Bhav: putting you in, putting you on the spot. I just want to warn you, it’s really hard to remember all the episodes that we recorded. Here comes the excuse recorded. Here come the excuses.

[00:02:10] Bhav: Absolutely. So if anyone’s listening, and I know I said it, but I apologise to all our previous guests that we couldn’t remember everything. You’ve all dropped so much knowledge on us and so many pearls of wisdom that it’s so hard to remember who said what. Any one of us could have said any one of the things that you’re about to hear.

[00:02:25] Bhav: So, I hope you enjoy listening to the episode and it’s been an absolute pleasure recording with Dan, you and Dara. It’s obviously nice to have one final episode with you certainly, but this won’t be our last episode. I’m sure we’ll be back on this on the measure part and you know, I’m sure we’ll meet at other events and crop talks and other podcasts.

[00:02:46] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. And I just want to say, it’s been awesome. I’ve really enjoyed this. I’ve learned an awful lot. And this is, I mean, almost, very, almost four years since we started this podcast, Eric. And you believe so, I feel like it’s time for a refresh. It’s time for a new, new thing. But for now, let’s grant us this one last listening experience where we talk about the podcast itself.

[00:03:09] Dan: We talk about some of the great guests we’ve had on, and, I would go as far as to say some really kind of, interesting and useful advice towards the end around how, how to approach certain things and some of the experiences that we’ve had along the way. So for the very last time, on with the show, enjoy.

[00:03:28] Dara: Okay, guys, so there’s, you know, nothing about this, so you’re, you’re not prepared. And hopefully I’m going to be able to. I’m not going to say trip you up, but you, you’ll remember when, when I was on the podcast, I was always trying to create a bit of drama, always trying to get you guys to disagree with each other.

[00:03:45] Dara: I’m not sure this is going to gimme the chance to do it, but it should at least give us a bit of fun. so I get the chance to quiz you. So we’re going to do this in, well, we’re going to have a quiz upfront, which you both get to take part in. And we were in two minds about whether to let you be a team or actually have you against each other.

[00:04:04] Dara: And really, there’s only one way. You’ve gotta be against each other. Otherwise I knew you were going to go down 

[00:04:09] Bhav: that route. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, welcome back. What a return. Yeah. 

[00:04:13] Dara: Otherwise, otherwise how do I win? How do I win? Exactly. Exactly. In fact, it was pretty much agreed that this isn’t the way it’s going to go, but I’ve just changed it last minute because, you know, here I am in the hot seat.

[00:04:24] Dara: So I get, I get to do that. so you, I’m going to quiz the two of you. it’s maybe not going to be the kind of quiz that you expect. It’s not going to be a chance for you to show off. Technical knowledge as such. Maybe a little bit more of a memory test, maybe might be the way to put it. and then we’re going to do a second part to the interview, which is going to be a little bit of a reflection.

[00:04:46] Dara: So, the first bit’s going to be the, the bit that’s going to make you sweat. And then, and then it should be nice and easy after that. 

[00:04:53] Bhav: At this point, I should just say that for anyone listening, Dan and I have not seen any of the questions ahead of time, so I apologize in advance. That’s my caveat for anything I say.

[00:05:03] Bhav: Any, any, past guest I’ve forgotten. I apologize. I’m really sorry. I just had no, I’ve had zero time to prep on this. 

[00:05:11] Dara: Well just as we’ll become clearer. You say you haven’t, you say you don’t know what’s coming, but you should. Recognize the questions because they are all related to the podcast. So it is going to test your memory.

[00:05:25] Dara: Bring it on Dara. Bring it on Dara? Yeah. All right. Okay. So you’re going to take it in turns. You’re going to have five questions each. I’m going to kind of keep score, but I might do it in a bit of a creative way, but depends on, it won’t just be about whether you get the answer right, but it might be about what kind of answer you give, and there might be a couple of bonuses along the way as well.

[00:05:43] Dara: So what the questions are all based around is, they’re all quotes, and what you have to answer is who said the quote. So it could be one of the two of you, or it might not be one of the two of you. So let’s see how well, you know, your own opinions and, and maybe the opinions of others. So I’m going to go, nearest to me in the, in the order here is Dan.

[00:06:08] Dara: So I’m going to, I’m going to start with Dan. so Dan, who said this. What if we had belts, like your analytics white belt, and then you can make it all the way up to your analytics black belt. Oh God. It’s a puzzle. Oh God. 

[00:06:21] Dan: You know what? It rings a bell. And I was really worried that I wouldn’t even have a Scooby about any of this stuff.

[00:06:26] Dan: It was a guest of ours. It wasn’t any of us. 

[00:06:28] Dara: I’m not giving you hints by the way you said that and kind of looked at me like I was going to tell you if you’re hot or cold, but no, you’re not getting any help from me. 

[00:06:35] Dan: I actually don’t know. I don’t know. I know that it happened. It’s take a guess because you 

[00:06:40] Dara: get no, you get no points for skipping.

[00:06:42] Dara: So take a guess. 

[00:06:44] Dan: Okay. you, you do know, you 

[00:06:46] Dara: do know this person’s name. 

[00:06:48] Dan: Oh, okay. Was it Juliana 

[00:06:51] Dara: Jackson by any chance? As a, as a stab in the dark? It’s a good guess, but unfortunately you’re wrong. I, I’m, I’m winging it. I’m going to change the rules as I go. I think we’re going to allow a handover. I think BV gets a shot at this to see if he can get the right answer.

[00:07:08] Dara: I’m making this up as I go. 

[00:07:10] Bhav: No, I love it. I, I love, I love the impromptu, I’m going to go with two. and this, I know, I’m, I’m now seeing as we’re breaking rules. It sounds like something I would say so potentially to me, but if it wasn’t me, I’m going to say it was Tim Kippen. 

[00:07:27] Dara: I am going to give you half a point because it was you, but you weren’t confident enough about it, so you’re only getting half a pound on that one.

[00:07:38] Bhav: It was fab. No way. It sounds like something I would say like it’s a hundred percent sounds like something I would say in my like facetious way of thinking about the analytics world, but I You say it was also something funny. Say it. Okay. It was also funny if that I could have been Tim, that I was like, oh, is this a Tim comment or is this a me comment?

[00:07:54] Dara: So you, you, but you probably won’t guess, guess this either of you. But, can you, can you, can you guess which episode, do you remember which episode that was, that was from? Or do you remember anything about the episode? Do you remember what the context was that you would’ve said it? 

[00:08:07] Dan: Oh, was this, sorry, this is, this is, this is me buzzing in.

[00:08:11] Dan: was it the episode we did where we were discussing how to advance in your analytics career? ’cause that was that question from Measure Sack, wasn’t it? Bhav? 

[00:08:21] Bhav: Yeah, that’s where I would’ve gone. It was definitely one of the more analytics heavy. Sessions. So that’s, that, that would’ve been my guess as well.

[00:08:29] Bhav: It’s the one where we discussed how someone progresses and does, how we get more information, I guess, about sort of like more advanced roles in analytics and, and what it looks like to be a, a mid to senior level. But no, no, that would, would, yeah, 

[00:08:44] Dara: That would make sense. But it wasn’t, it was from, the one about, from cost to profit center with Steen Rasmussen, it was number 107 for anyone out there who wants to go back and just fact check on that one.

[00:08:57] Dara: But 

[00:08:57] Bhav: it was, yeah, with Steen, for what it’s worth, I do stand by my view, like it would be nice to have like analytics belts, white belt to black belt, and then you have like grandma. 

[00:09:09] Dara: Yeah, I agree. And I actually would’ve got that right? Just a little, I mean, I would say that, but I, I remember you saying, I, I remember you saying it, Bev.

[00:09:16] Dara: Well, I’m, I’m, I’ll take half a point. I should have said it with Confluence. 

[00:09:19] Bhav: I was like, it sounds like, yeah, you would’ve got a full point. But I, I wish I 

[00:09:22] Dara: say that. You hedged your bets. You only get half a point. Okay. But you get another shit, you get another shot now, Bev. ’cause it’s, it’s your question now.

[00:09:28] Dara: So quote number two, it’s okay to have your eggs in one basket, as long as you control what happens to that basket. 

[00:09:36] Bhav: Who said it? 

[00:09:38] Dara: That’s the question I’m asking. Game. I’m asking you. Yeah, 

[00:09:42] Bhav: I I’m going to, I think this was Dan, like, it really sounds like a Dan sentiment, and I think it’s the episode with Adam Greco, 

[00:09:50] Dara: Dan looks like a mug.

[00:09:52] Dara: So let’s see what Dan thinks. 

[00:09:54] Dan: I, I, I was thinking of me as well as a, as a reaction to someone saying about eggs and baskets and then me trying to do something funny and turn it into a, a, an analogy or some other weird thing. So yeah, it definitely sounds weird enough that I would’ve said it. 

[00:10:08] Dara: Oh, unfortunately you’re both wrong.

[00:10:10] Dara: It was Elon Musk. 

[00:10:12] Dan: What, what? 

[00:10:12] Bhav: That was, that was a couple 

[00:10:16] Dara: that never wasn’t expected. I, I, I never said these people have been on the, have been on the podcast. 

[00:10:22] Bhav: Fair enough. Okay. You, oh, sorry we didn’t 

[00:10:24] Dan: read the small print, did we? 

[00:10:28] Bhav: You’re a sneaky one. Dara. I’m, let’s keep going. I’m, I keep, I wasn’t, I 

[00:10:32] Dara: wasn’t going to make it easy on you guys.

[00:10:33] Dara: Come on. No, you haven’t. alright. Dan, back to you. I’m already losing track of whose question it is, but I’m pretty sure it stands. I think as humans we will endure a little bit of pain to get that thing done. 

[00:10:45] Dan: I, I, now thinking of some like old school philosopher 

[00:10:49] Dara: Yeah. I, that, that, that’s kind of fitting, I think maybe less of the old school, but yeah.

[00:10:56] Dan: Was it you then? 

[00:10:57] Dara: No.

[00:11:02] Dan: Alright, that wasn’t my answer, but thank you for clarifying that. I feel like you should lose half mark just for 

[00:11:07] Dara: Yeah, I, I think you, I think that was an answer, but let’s, I’ll give you a stab and then I’ll decide if I’m going to give you any points or not. 

[00:11:14] Dan: I’m going to say back, I’m going to say that’s a bad line.

[00:11:18] Dan: when we were talking about, on one of the episodes where we’re talking about, maybe the semantic layering and generative AI in the world of analytics. Maybe that’s my guess. 

[00:11:30] Bhav: What was that quote again? Darth? Let me have a think. 

[00:11:33] Dara: I think as humans, we will endure a little bit of pain to get that thing done.

[00:11:39] Bhav: And I, I, I kind of agree with that. And I think the reason why it might have been me is because I wrote a post about something very similar to this topic where humans actually will, like, if you can walk five minutes to the supermarket or the news agent, you’ll walk that, but, and, and endure that little bit of pain.

[00:11:56] Bhav: But it’s only after a certain threshold where the pain becomes greater than the reward or the ease of doing the task. Like you, you know, you, it might be quicker to drive to the supermarket, to the news agent, but you walk just because it’s not too bad. But actually, if you then have to drive, walk 30 minutes a little bit further out, you’ll probably take that car even though it’s, and you’ll get there quicker than if you were to walk to, the, to the news section.

[00:12:18] Bhav: I’ve, I’ve, I’ve rambled that one, but it does sound like a blog post I wrote. 

[00:12:23] Dara: Well, it is. You, it was you bv. so Dan’s going to get half a point for that. You’re not going to get anything bad, unfortunately, because he did. He did. He did guess it. Right. But, neither of you are quite on track with the episode.

[00:12:37] Dara: Well, you didn’t mention episode B, but you, you talked about the blog post that you wrote. But it did come from a podcast episode. Any idea which, which one, do you remember the context at all? I mean, it could be a lot of them, couldn’t it? This is a tricky one. Yeah. 

[00:12:52] Bhav: Was it the, who cares about the data literacy episode?

[00:12:55] Bhav: 85. I feel like it’s something. 

[00:12:58] Dara: Wow. I love that. You know the number though. 

[00:13:00] Bhav: Oh, no. I’ve got it open. I’m not, I’m not like I Oh, I see. I’ve literally got, oh, 

[00:13:03] Dara: You’re both cheating. I 

[00:13:05] Bhav: see. Looking at something I shoulda thought about this feel as a reminder because it’s, we’ve done so many, so I’m going to go with that one.

[00:13:13] Bhav: But it sounds like I’m, I’m wrong. 

[00:13:15] Dara: You, you are. So you’re both wrong. It’s the, it’s from number 95, analytics on form. So that was with Alan Lucas from SCO Analytics all around tracking, you know what, that actually makes 

[00:13:25] Bhav: sense. Okay. Yeah. Yep. I had, I was very opinionated in that episode and I, and I felt like, well, we will endure a little bit of pain to complete the form.

[00:13:33] Dara: Yeah. Which, which is true, we, we do, don’t we? Yeah. Okay. Over to 

[00:13:39] Bhav: Bob, to me. Yeah, that’s right. We’re jumping between. So I’m keeping track of schools, obviously I’m a data person. Okay. So we’re tied that half and half, which is abysmal considering we both went to two questions each. 

[00:13:49] Dan: Yeah, you are. I just think of it as like a British panel show where we dunno how the scores work and we dunno who’s going to win, but it doesn’t matter.

[00:13:55] Dara: okay. So Bhav, who said if your curiosity dies, then everything else follows ring any bells. 

[00:14:03] Dara: I can tell you who it wasn’t and it wasn’t me. 

[00:14:06] Bhav: Whilst I wish that you don’t get, you don’t get any points for saying No, I know, I know. I’m, I’m just being sneaky. I’m trying to see if I can score extra points.

[00:14:12] Bhav: If your curiosity dies, everything else follows. episode 87 with Sean Mago. He, he, I think this is something that he would say. 

[00:14:26] Dara: I love that. I love the, just the blatant cheating that you’re just literally reading them off the, off the list now. Yeah. Number 87, wonder who, no, it’s not, it’s not Sean. It’s not number 87.

[00:14:36] Dara: No. So unfortunately, 

[00:14:39] Dan: Baby who, I mean, was a guest in the episode, but guess who said it? 

[00:14:43] Bhav: I did. Sean. My guess was Sean. Oh, sorry. You guess Was Sean Okay, I was Sean because it sounds like something he might say, like if you’re curious. Stan, do you want to have a stab at it? 

[00:14:55] Dan: it, it’s, it’s ringing a bell and it might be me because I hold curiosity to the highest possible level within, like being an analyst.

[00:15:03] Dan: Right. I think you’ve gotta be curious and I’ve been kind of harking about that for years. And so either someone said it and I immediately afterwards kind of agreed with them, you know, aggressively agreed with them. Or it was me saying that in an episode. So, I dunno what episode it was, but it was me.

[00:15:20] Dara: Yeah, you sure? ’cause you seem to be trying to hedge your bets there, then it might be you or it might be somebody else entirely. No, no saying no. I, I feel 

[00:15:26] Dan: like it’s something I would say, ’cause I do feel strongly about that, but I, I, I don’t know. Yeah. My guess is me. Yeah. I dunno what to say. Yeah, 

[00:15:32] Bhav: you’re right, 

[00:15:32] Dan: you’re 

[00:15:32] Bhav: right.

[00:15:33] Bhav: It, it is you. I should have, you know, I just, from a statistical standpoint, I was going to guess Dan because we’ve had one that was me. So I thought, okay, by all accounts, this next one could have been Dan, so I should have played the numbers game. Damn you B I’m 

[00:15:45] Dara: I’m going to give you the game again. In the spirit of just making up the scoring system and rules to go along.

[00:15:51] Dara: I think I’m going to give you half a point ’cause it was B’S question and you weren’t completely, completely confident. So I don’t think one point is fair. I’m going to give you half a point for that one. Dan, do you know Dan, which episode it was from or do you want to have a guess at it? 

[00:16:05] Dan: I, I know I’ve already mentioned her name already, but is this the Juliana Jackson episode?

[00:16:10] Dan: No, no, I don’t think this was Juliana. No. Okay. That was the 

[00:16:12] Bhav: more recent one. One. It was one of the recent ones I would’ve remembered, but I think it’s a slightly older one. Can I try to squeeze a point, point back by guessing, 

[00:16:21] Dara: Ooh. Maybe half a point. Guess it’s not over a point here. And Al And also, do you mean because you’ve 

[00:16:25] Bhav: just looked it up and found it?

[00:16:27] Bhav: No, no. I dunno. I genuinely don’t have the scripts. I only have the episode numbers. Right. So I can only guess what the episode number is. Well, I’ll give you a, I’ll give you a 

[00:16:35] Dara: guess. 

[00:16:35] Bhav: Okay. So it was about curiosity, which means that it had to be someone who’s probably said something that was quite insightful or thought provoking.

[00:16:43] Bhav: And I think of the, of our more thought provoking guests, it was Adam Greer. David Manheim. I’m going to go with the David Manheim episode. 

[00:16:52] Dara: No, incorrect. Is it? 

[00:16:53] Dan: Sorry. Just, just one last guess. Is it, the, the one that was just me and bv and it was about the road trip. Data is a road trip. No. Oh, 

[00:17:02] Dara: fuck no, no.

[00:17:04] Dara: Sorry guys. Enough. No, no more guesses. Okay. You’ve your chance. Me out. My misery. Dar this is from number 1 0 9, which as you’ll obviously remember, was the analytics of PlayStation with Gabor Master from Sony. Ah, 

[00:17:16] Dan: course. 

[00:17:18] Dara: There you go. Okay. Right. Remind me who’s who, whose question is it? It’s, it’s yours, Dan?

[00:17:23] Dara: Yeah. Okay. So Dan said, all models are terrible, but some are better than others. Good quote. Well, that’s definitely, 

[00:17:31] Dan: That’s definitely a quote that I parrot a lot and I dunno who originally said it. All models are wrong, but some are better than others. All are ter 

[00:17:40] Dara: It’s similar, but all models are terrible, but some are better than others.

[00:17:44] Dan: Terrible. Okay. That doesn’t, unless I, my, my, my mouth was running faster than my brain, and I didn’t mean to say the word terrible. I thought it was me. because I, I always talk about this in the context of attribution modeling, whereby there’s no right answer and they’re all. They’re all useful in different ways, but to say that all models are terrible, alright, to, to give an answer.

[00:18:04] Dan: I’m going to guess and I dunno what episode I’ll, I’ll have a think. First of all, am I right? 

[00:18:11] Dara: No. Ah, it was not you. You might, you might have, I mean, I think with some of these, you, you, you each will have probably said similar things. I wouldn’t have said terrible. 

[00:18:19] Dan: Yeah, that’s what I, yeah, 

[00:18:21] Dara: yeah. No, I think you were, you were, you were, you were right on your thinking there.

[00:18:24] Dara: So no, it was not you. So I’m going to hand it over to B see if he can, to furiously scrolling up and down 

[00:18:30] Bhav: the list because this, again, this is one of the ones that I, I would say as well, but I don’t want to, I’m assuming all of these aren’t just mine and Dan’s quotes. ’cause that would be really, really sneaky.

[00:18:44] Bhav: But it’s, again, it’s, it sounds like something I’ve said in the past before. I genuinely think all models are terrible. Some are just less terrible than others. Let me think. Give yourself 5, 4, 3. Two, one. I’m going to watch the episode with Sean again. It’s, if it wasn’t me or Dara, if it wasn’t me or Dan, it might have been Sean.

[00:19:11] Dara: No, unfortunately, you’re also wrong. It was Igor Howell from number 115 Lessons from a data science content creator. 

[00:19:19] Bhav: That’s, 

[00:19:20] Dara: I that’s super 

[00:19:20] Bhav: recent. 

[00:19:21] Dara: Yeah, 

[00:19:23] Bhav: I feel like, sorry, a quarter point because I was, I was right. No, no. It sounded like a data science model. question. 

[00:19:30] Dara: Listen, careful or I’m going to start taking points off you above.

[00:19:33] Dara: Okay. Sorry. 

[00:19:34] Bhav: Sorry. 

[00:19:36] Dara: Okay. I mean, we’re not 

[00:19:36] Bhav: compatible are we, Dan? No, no. We’re trying to win this fictional game that Dara has just made up. 

[00:19:42] Dara: Yeah. That’s become the most important thing, which it is. You know, you need, you, you need to win this. It’s quiet, this is quite serious. You need, you need the bragging rights.

[00:19:50] Dara: Okay. I think this is, you know, Bev, I think, I think it’s your question. God, I’m really bad at keeping track. I’m just enjoying this too much. Okay. BV who said, what we’re saying is the data is directional. We can use it because it’s directional. I think, I think, I think Dan knows 

[00:20:08] Dan: I Well, I mean, I’m feeling confident now, but it’s not my turn, so, 

[00:20:11] Dara: no, 

[00:20:13] Bhav: let’s see if you get a chance.

[00:20:15] Bhav: Okay. I’m going to go with Timo Timo au because I think he, like me, operates in that kind of product analytics space where we know the data is never going to be perfect. It only has to be directionally accurate. So my educated guess would be Timo. 

[00:20:33] Dara: It’s a good guess, but it’s not right. 

[00:20:38] Bhav: Down to you. No, 

[00:20:39] Dan: I’m going to say it’s, ole, on the sanity of a vanity one, because I think we’re, I think the conversation was something around, working with, missing or fragmented data or something like that.

[00:20:55] Dan: Incorrect. It was actually 

[00:20:58] Dara: Daniel Perry Reed. 

[00:21:00] Bhav: Oh. What? 

[00:21:02] Dara: Number 1 0 8, the death of accuracy and obituary. Oh yeah, of course. How could you forget, how could you, you just say too, ma, you just say too many clever things, Dan. It’s hard to keep track of all of them really, isn’t it? 

[00:21:14] Dan: That’s, you know, you know, I’m glad you said it because I was thinking that.

[00:21:16] Dan: Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly, 

[00:21:18] Dara: wow. No, no. You’re, you’re both scoring. I’m disappointed you’re both scoring really low. This is really hard. I didn’t think it would be this hard. I’m really glad it is. Okay, Dan, I think we’re back to you now if I’m, if I’m not mistaken, that’s me. Okay. So, so who said marketers love talking about ai, but if your data isn’t clean, all you’re doing is automating bad decisions faster.

[00:21:45] Dan: I have a feeling that was in that kind of period of time where we had a bunch of AI talks and we had Oh, Was that the, I I’ve also got the list open here, by the way, on the website. Was that episode 98 with David? Around what on earth is a semantic layer? 

[00:22:04] Dara: No. 

[00:22:06] Bhav: Oh, fuck. Repeat the question. the 

[00:22:08] Dara: quote again, please.

[00:22:09] Dara: Dara, marketers love talking about ai, but if your data isn’t clean, all you’re doing is automating bad decisions faster. 

[00:22:19] Bhav: I do the, the, yeah, the quote does ring a bell. I’m just trying to rattle my brain to think about it, to see if I can figure out who said it. This one I’m going to go with Tim Cups. I feel like this is something Tim would say.

[00:22:36] Bhav: ’cause he, he, he, he was full of these kind of like nuggets of hilarious points. I’m going to go with Tim ’cause he is also. Ted Gas, he’s more in that marketing space. And he always talks about, you know, he, he has these like funny stories and he talks about decision making and tools and storytelling. So I’m going to go with him.

[00:22:56] Bhav: I, I, I, I think it’s a 

[00:22:57] Dara: really good guess. Unfortunately it’s not right. It was the GPT chat that said this.

[00:23:07] Dan: Yeah. But who did it train the information and knowledge of to begin with? It might have been us, it might have been Tim. I think it was our editor. Oh, 

[00:23:16] Bhav: okay. Yeah, this is, it’s a mean one. That’s a mean one. There’s a lesson in here somewhere. There is a podcast talk in itself, in here about our ability as humans to recollect what’s been said and actually goes down into why, eye witness testimony is really, really bad when it comes to criminal convictions.

[00:23:34] Bhav: We can’t even remember things that we’ve recorded and said and heard, you know, and he, we, and under zero pressure, although, Dara, I’m feeling the pressure now that you know, when someone’s life is on the lines and they’re expected to remember, like eyewitness testimony, just not. I, I’m, I’m not taking this badly, Dan, anymore.

[00:23:53] Bhav: I’ve, if I remember the fact that humans are just shit at doing this. Yeah. But one of 

[00:23:59] Dara: you have to be less shit. And that’s what we’re, that’s what we’re following. And I have, 

[00:24:02] Dan: I think I have half a point more than you, so that’s what big words are bad at the moment, saying you do it doesn’t matter. You know that I’m winning.

[00:24:07] Dan: Right. We’re only 

[00:24:08] Bhav: 23 minutes in and there’s still another 15, 20 minutes to go. 

[00:24:12] Dan: Okay, fine. Fine. All right. Carry on. Dara. We need to find a clear winner. 

[00:24:15] Dara: You’re running outta questions. That’s all I’m going to say. There’s three. There’s three to go. So bad, over to you. So who said it’s like buying a Lamborghini to drop your children to school?

[00:24:29] Dara: It’s a very expensive solution to a very trivial problem. 

[00:24:33] Bhav: God, that was recent. That’s me. That was, that is 100% me. That is definitely something I’ve said in the past. Confidence and I used confidence. Yeah. I’m, I’m going to say confidently. I, I think that’s me because I, I, you often talk about kind of. Using data models and AI to do really basic Excel stuff.

[00:24:51] Bhav: And I’ve used that analogy of a trailer carrying the little tykes red car. Like it does the job, but it’s an overkill. So I’m going to go with me, but I I, I have a feeling you’re going to tell me I’m wrong. 

[00:25:02] Dara: Oh, that last little, little loss of confidence might just, no, there’s no confidence taken. Might take a little fraction off your score.

[00:25:10] Bhav: A hundred percent of me. A hundred 

[00:25:12] Dara: percent. It was you, it was you. you almost tucked yourself into getting, getting a three quarters of a point there. But I’m going to, I’m going to give you, I’m going to give you the full point. I think you were the whole point. You were confident. Yeah. He didn’t even get the episode.

[00:25:24] Dara: are those the episodes for bonuses? Listen, don’t question the quiz master, because the two half points you’ve got done, I don’t have to keep them on your, on your score. I could, I could take, oh, I missed you. I could take them away. I could take them away. Okay. B, for a chance to get some bonus points and really.

[00:25:43] Dara: You know, pull, pull into the, into lead in your Lamborghini. Yep. What episode is this from? You don’t have to know the number, although I know you have got the list now, so you probably will quote the number. But which episode was it from, do you know? 

[00:25:55] Bhav: I’m going to go with the, again, the team OD how one, the future of event data.

[00:26:00] Bhav: Is it all that one? 

[00:26:02] Dara: Oh, Dan seems confident. I’m going to put my 

[00:26:05] Dan: vote in before you give the, before you say yes or no, Dara. I think it’s the one we did with Yanos from funnel on, episode 1 1 3. And I think it was kind of like overkill solutions when you use the analogy of like and really clever marketing sort of analytics solutions.

[00:26:24] Dan: That’s my guess. 

[00:26:25] Dara: Incorrect. Ah, no, no, no, no. Bonus points for this one. This one was from number 100 ROI, positive MarTech. Is it possible it was the one with Glen from Human 37? 

[00:26:37] Bhav: Ah, 

[00:26:37] Dara: That was such a great episode. That was, yeah. Yeah, 

[00:26:40] Bhav: yeah. Yeah. I mean, they’ve all been great episodes. It’s really hard to pinpoint, where some of these quotes, 

[00:26:46] Dará: some of ’em 

[00:26:46] Bhav: could be from 

[00:26:47] Dara: Annie.

[00:26:47] Dara: Yeah, they could have, they could have been. It’s so hard outta context. It could, it could literally be from, from any episode. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, this wouldn’t be fun if it was easy, so, no, exactly. Okay, so two, you’ve got one, you’ve got one question, one quote each left. So Dan, your last one, although you may get a chance to steal some points, and if Bhav doesn’t get his, but Dan who said last click is like McDonald’s, you know, it’s crap.

[00:27:12] Dara: You know, you shouldn’t go there, but you still go there ringing any bells. Is, 

[00:27:17] Dan: Is that? Again, I think it’s just more may, maybe the recency bias in my brain. But was that yanos in that mm m episode, Yanos from Funnel? 

[00:27:29] Dara: I was really worried you weren’t going to get it after just mentioning it in the last one.

[00:27:33] Dara: But that was, that was Yanos. Yeah. And so that is 

[00:27:37] Dan: that episode as well. That’s two episodes and a person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I get excited. I just absolutely punched the microphone, which 

[00:27:46] Bhav: this is how much this means. I guess I thought the bonus points were only worth half. So I’m, I feel like that’s one too many.

[00:27:52] Bhav: One and half. I get one and a half can, 

[00:27:55] Dara: how many did he say he was getting? So half, one. A half for getting the 

[00:27:59] Bhav: episode. I’m still not convinced. You actually said who, who said it? All you did was Yes, the episode. 

[00:28:04] Dan: No, I said Yanos. It was yanos in that episode. And then that also gave me the episode because he’s only been on one episode.

[00:28:10] Dara: Well, this is the thing you see with this one. I, the, the, you know, bonus points should be hard earned. And I feel like you got the, you got who said it and that gave you the episode. So I need to have a little think about this. And how many points am I going to give you for that? I think one and a half, I think one and a half points.

[00:28:28] Dara: I think that’s fair. It’s fair. Yeah. I’m going to give you one and a half. Okay. So I have a terrible memory. 

[00:28:34] Bhav: I have a terrible memory. Gone. Let’s put on my misery. Take me around the back and shoot me already. Dara, let’s go. 

[00:28:41] Dara: Finding it though. That’s not the hard part. It’s letting go. Probably my wife.

[00:28:49] Bhav: You’re right. It is no, finding it is not that hard. 

[00:28:54] Dara: Finding it though. That’s not the hard part. It’s letting go. 

[00:28:59] Bhav: Oh, you are finishing me with an absolute, just a needle in the haystack quote, isn’t you? You’ve 

[00:29:04] Dan: just blindfolded him, spun him around 30 times and asked him to throw a bullseye with a dot.

[00:29:08] Bhav: Yeah. 

[00:29:09] Dan: Finding it though, that’s not the hard 

[00:29:11] Bhav: part. It’s letting go. Do you have at least any context of what we’re finding and struggling to let go? 

[00:29:20] Dara: I feel like this should have been a, like a final bonus. You know, hands on the buzzer. It’s like the countdown conundrum. I think this should have been that.

[00:29:29] Dara: I think maybe, I think maybe I could, could you widen the quote, 

[00:29:32] Dan: Dara? Could you, could you jump in and find it? Or is that what you’ve been given? 

[00:29:36] Dara: I could. What? Yeah. And I’ll widen it. It’s not from an episode of the Measure Pod. So 

[00:29:43] Dan: just all of recorded history to choose 

[00:29:45] Dara: from. Yeah, I’ve basically, basically widened it, you know, to, it could be anything except something from the, from the measure pod.

[00:29:55] Dara: I would’ve thought one of you at least would know this or might know this or should know this. I don’t have a clue by the way, what this is. I’m going to struggle to even give the answer. 

[00:30:08] Dara: alright, bv, I’m going to give you another one and then we’re going to come back to this one and see if either of you want to take a wild stab in the dark for Okay.

[00:30:15] Dara: Some extra final points. And I might give, if you get it, I might give you loads of points. Can 

[00:30:20] Bhav: we just 

[00:30:20] Dara: clarify that neither of 

[00:30:22] Bhav: Are you trying to Google the answer right now? 

[00:30:24] Dara: No, I think you’re going to have to, yeah, I think Okay. From, until we get to the end of this, I think keep your, keep your hands visible.

[00:30:30] Dara: Just to make sure. Okay. So b I’m going to give you another one. I think that’s a bit harsh. Oh, Dan’s hands with, yeah, Dan, come on. data is only as valuable as the decisions it informs. If you’re not acting on insights, you’re just hoarding numbers.

[00:30:49] Bhav: Do I not? Oh, okay. Come on. I’m going to go with Juliana. Juliana, Jackson, Dan. 

[00:30:57] Dara: Sorry that that means No, you’re wrong. But yeah. Was it, was it me? No, no, it was also a chat. GPT. Ah. 

[00:31:07] Bhav: I know, I know, I know, I know. I’ve got three that are non-people related. Ones. I could barely get the people who said it, let alone people who didn’t say it.

[00:31:15] Dara: you listen, you’ve got a chance with this countdown conundrum. So I’ll give it to you. I’ll give it to you again. Hands up. B Okay. So finding it though, that’s not the hard part. It’s letting go. I’ll give you a clue. I’ll give it to you, I’m going to give you like maybe 10 seconds to take a wild guess. If you want to, you can have as many guesses on this one as you like.

[00:31:37] Dara: And if you don’t guess it in the next 10 seconds or so, I’ll give you a clue and maybe the clue will give it away. I don’t know. I, I’ve no idea. ’cause I don’t, finding it 

[00:31:45] Bhav: Is that hard? 

[00:31:48] Dara: It’s letting go. Any, any? Does it ring a 

[00:31:50] Bhav: bell at all to either of you? No. I’ve heard so many things. You know, where it’s like, you know, when they talk about letting go and then someone says.

[00:31:58] Bhav: You first. You know, and, and there’s a lot of these kinds of things where we hold onto things, or like Marvel universe type things. But I can’t, I 

[00:32:09] Dara: you not you, okay? So I, I’m the worst person to help on this one, but it’s not Marvel Universe. But you are not a million, million, million miles away. It is, and I don’t want to give you the wrong kind of clue.

[00:32:21] Dara: It’s not, it’s, that’s not a million, million miles away. It’s, it’s, it is something vaguely similar to that. I’m not sure if I’m helping or not, but think along those kinds of lines. It’s nothing to do with analytics, nothing to do with measuring pos. Yeah, I know. I 

[00:32:36] Bhav: trying that. I, I’ve never seen 

[00:32:39] Dara: a clue. I’ve never seen the two of you sweat this much.

[00:32:41] Dara: Dan, I think you, you were the one. I, I am not saying I, I don’t know about you bv. I’m not sure if this is a thing that you would. 

[00:32:48] Dan: That 

[00:32:48] Dara: you, 

[00:32:49] Dan: Okay, fine. If this is, if this is something to do with something that I might have or known, I’m going to guess it, it might be a Star Trek related thing. And in which case it is Spock about emotions.

[00:33:02] Bhav: Okay. If it’s a Dan related thing, Dan, the, the one universal truth I know about Dan is that he’s a massive gamer. so I feel like this is probably some type of gaming reference. It’s just Dan’s, the type of game Dan enjoys are not the same ones that I enjoy. So it’s a hard one and if it’s about finding something, I’m going to go down a mythical route, like a mythical or like some fan fancy type of game.

[00:33:29] Bhav: But that’s as far as I can probably take it. ’cause Dan and I do not play the same games. 

[00:33:34] Dara: I, I don’t even know for a fact that Dan does play this, so. Okay. But it’s a game. The worst. It’s a game. Yeah. Oh, so I was nodding. I was nodding. I was nodding. Fine. Sorry. I know Dan, you missed my visual. Finding it though is not my heart’s Visual cue.

[00:33:47] Dan: It’s letting go. 

[00:33:48] Dara: It’s letting go. Okay. I’m going to have to push you guys. You, you, I, I need a, you want to throw out a wild guess? Either of you? No, I need that clue, Daryl. No, that was it. That was the clue. It’s again, not the clue. Yeah. I don’t know. The only way, if I give you another clue, I’d probably give the answer away.

[00:34:05] Dara: ’cause I don’t know. I’m not a gamer. I don’t know anything about this. I think with 

[00:34:08] Bhav: more clues, the points should diminish. So, let’s see. 

[00:34:11] Dara: Is it, is it Dara, is it Flimm Bow’s Quest? No, I would know 

[00:34:14] Bhav: that 

[00:34:15] Dan: That would be a nice callback to one of our first ever episodes about your gaming experience. Yeah. no. Okay, then I, that was my guess.

[00:34:22] Bhav: what type of games does Stan play? I’m going to go to the finals. Fancy. No, 

[00:34:28] Dara: it’s fallout. I do love playing fallout, but, so I’m going to read something out. I don’t know if this, tell me if this makes any sense. From the DLC dead money, the notion that the old world is something that must be let go, comes up constantly in Fallout New Vegas.

[00:34:43] Dara: This is mostly shown through the DLC Dead Money where the player gets roped into a heist of an old world casino that is said to have tons of golden tech. 

[00:34:52] Bhav: I’ve never played fallouts. I would never, I would never. 

[00:34:54] Dan: It, I, I mean, I have, it’s, first of all, it’s a relatively old game. It’s a great game, but it’s an add-on to an old game, but I can’t remember shit from it.

[00:35:05] Dan: Remember? It, 

[00:35:06] Dara: it, it, it was never going to be easy. Okay. Let me increase my scores. I’ve got, I’ve got it down as two and a half points to Dan and one and a half to bath. One half me. Yeah. That’s why I have as well mentally. 

[00:35:17] Bhav: Yeah. I mean, good there. 

[00:35:19] Dan: That’s, I think we can validate that school. Yeah. 

[00:35:22] Bhav: Yep. Well played Dan.

[00:35:24] Bhav: Sarah, you’ve made a powerful enemy.

[00:35:31] Dara: I wish I could take credit for the ridiculously hard questions, but they were really hard. Yeah. Yeah. That’s one though. All I did was read them out. Yeah. I, I, I really didn’t think, it’s hard to know how it was going to go. It could have been really easy and you could have just guessed them straight away.

[00:35:44] Dara: but it’s like you said, Bhav, we, we can’t really trust our own memories of who said what when it’s like, it all, it all kind of just blurs together, doesn’t it? 

[00:35:52] Bhav: No, it does. And I think what’s inter, what’s interesting is, yes, well, absolutely, we can’t trust our own memory, but it just goes to show the caliber of ca Guests we’ve had on the show that actually any one of those guests could have said any one of the things that you’ve talked about, including that last one from Fallout. You know, that could easily be about a vanity metric that could have, you know, easily been about something like average time on site or something that we hook ourselves to, but we’ve really struggled to let go, even though we know we should.

[00:36:20] Bhav: Bounce rate is another classic example where my, so that’s why my initial thought was really around a metric, but when you said it’s nothing to do that, I was like, and it’s maybe something Dan guard, like it’s probably a gaming thing. So I don’t know. My powers of deduction are strong, but my ability to get to the right answer is terrible.

[00:36:36] Bhav: I, I, 

[00:36:37] Dara: I’ll, I’ll hold my hands up and say it was tough, but I, because of that, I really, really enjoyed it. 

[00:36:42] Bhav: Yeah. Yeah. Most, most fun. I’m glad you enjoyed it, Darry. 

[00:36:45] Dara: Which, which I did. I I did. I, the crew, the cruel, cruel person inside me enjoyed, and enjoyed watching the two of you and didn’t have a clue about some of them.

[00:36:54] Dara: but some of them are really good. I, I, I do think you were along the right lines with some of them, but it’s just so, it’s so hard to pinpoint. ’cause it could have actually been said, and maybe even similar quotes were said in some of the episodes that you mentioned, but you don’t get points for that unfortunately.

[00:37:07] Dara: So, 

[00:37:08] Bhav: yeah, the model one, you know, where it’s like all models are terrible, but some or less, like, I’m certain I’ve heard Dan say that before. So it’s so interesting that we’ve, it was in a more recent episode with, with Eagle. So, yeah, that’s, that’s, it’s so interesting because I like No, Dan, which is why when you said that’s a, because I think you initially went, that’s me, I, my, my brain was, yeah, that sounds like Dan.

[00:37:28] Dan: Yeah, but I, knowing, I think that’s what I went, I was just like, but I wouldn’t say terrible. I would always say, all models are correct. Some, you know, because there, yeah, I would, I don’t think I would’ve, that’s what threw me. ’cause I was like, sometimes I just spout words and I forget immediately what I’ve said.

[00:37:42] Dan: So it could have been me. 

[00:37:43] Bhav: See, I, no, if I was saying that quote, I’ve heard it as, and I certainly said it as well, I’ve said as all models are wrong, some are just less wrong. 

[00:37:50] Dan: I, I’ve always said all models are wrong except for some that can be useful or something like that. Yeah. It all plays on the same thing.

[00:37:55] Dan: There’s something there. Yeah, there’s definitely something there. 

[00:37:57] Dara: Alright. No knowing, knowing you two, you’re probably going to go away after this and like go and validate all of this and say, actually you were wrong. And I said this first and it was episode 42 and I got the points and you’re going to come back and tell me that the score was actually completely different.

[00:38:10] Dara: But I’m going to ignore you because it’s my score that counts. and, and that’s it. although I’d love to say it was a draw. ’cause I think you, you, you performed equally badly. Dan just happened to get guessed slightly less badly. Okay. Listen, you, you BB you mentioned there about, you know, just the quality of the episodes and the quality of the guests.

[00:38:30] Dara: So that actually is a very nice segue into the second part of the conversation I wanted to have with you guys, which is a bit more of a reflection or a retrospective. So the first question I was going to ask you both was just do you have any, and this is a tough one as well, but do you have any kind of favorite episodes or even just favorite moments from any of the episodes?

[00:38:53] Dara: it doesn’t have to be just one either, but just some of the, some of the kind of standouts. For, for, for, for each of you. So this, you, you can each have a, have a, have an answer to this one, be key to you what you 

[00:39:03] Dan: Think Did I do, I did think about this actually before this episode as a bit of a.

[00:39:07] Dan: Recap, just, just, just because I think I’ve got a couple more under my belt than Bhav has thus far. So I had further to go back. I needed a bit of time to kind of like, think about and, and reflect. But yeah, I think there’s, there’s a, there’s a lot and, and, and both of you, you can, you can back me up on this.

[00:39:22] Dan: There’s a lot of these episodes with interesting people and even some of the ones with just us, dare I say, the way we come off it being like, that was great. That was like one of the, one of the good ones, you know, that was a really good conversation. They’re all good. They’re all great. But like, sometimes you come off thinking, I’ve changed how I think about something.

[00:39:37] Dan: Right. and a couple that come to mind. So going back like, a, a long time, when it was, back in the early days a couple of years ago, and it was just me and you, we had a couple that, like the three of these, stuck together in my brain as kind of like the same period of time. I can’t actually, can’t remember if it was, but we, we had one with Ellen Cole around accessibility and data and social media.

[00:40:00] Dan: And it just opened my eyes to a lot of stuff around. Screen readers alt text and things like that and how important that is. And that from that point onwards, it changed how I posted things to social media and how I used LinkedIn and formatting the hashtags as well, so that it’s easy to be differentiated from the words.

[00:40:17] Dan: we also had two more just to kind of quickly call them out. Rowena Fielding on the kind of privacy GDPR side of things. That was a fascinating conversation and we also had one, with Mark Crawley around neurodiversity in, in data talent, and in the human beings behind it and the kind of power of neurodiversity in our industry.

[00:40:35] Dan: So I just wanted to call those three out because they’ve changed a lot of how I approach things, but I. There’s a couple that just always stick with me, I suppose, when I think about my time doing the podcast. And, and one of them was talking and it was the first time I met, Johan Vanderveen, you know, GA four data form.

[00:40:53] Dan: At that time it was GA4 BigQuery, and that was just a really interesting conversation with a really clever person. And I’ve met up with him since super week and connected and, you know, he’s just a great person. But that was the first time I ever spoke to him. And then, Juliana, was awesome.

[00:41:07] Dan: Similarly, the first time I spoke to Juliana, it was really recent. and then I have to, I have to mention Gabor, from Sony. and that was just a world of really fascinating, interesting things for me, like combining two of my hobbies. and I just want to call out one last person because I think the biggest change happened after talking to Ken Williams, when he, he started his own thing up dive team.

[00:41:30] Dan: And, about a year or so after that, we brought him on the podcast talking about how he’s kind of the definition of modern marketing. I’ve been spouting this to anyone that cares to listen or reads anything I write, but how marketing analytics is marketing. Like us, we can call it whatever we want. We can call ourselves analysts, we can call ourselves marketing analysts.

[00:41:49] Dan: So I can call myself a marketing analytics specialist or whatever. But essentially it’s all marketing. We’re all playing within that world. Like you can’t do marketing without data. And it was just kind of tying those things together, how we’re all on the same team, and how it’s one thing that we’re working towards and now that’s my industry.

[00:42:05] Dan: I know that not everyone works in marketing. but for me, I think it really solidified the idea that, as analytics people, as data people, we are in the service industry, we’re actually servicing someone else’s data, not for the sake of data, but for me it’s servicing marketing. b you work within the marketing world, but also, product and other teams as well.

[00:42:25] Dan: You know, we are not separate from that. We are part of that. And I think it, that was a big clicking moment for me in how I think about my role, and my, my career, I suppose. 

[00:42:35] Bhav: I think there were a few, so dance already listed off many good ones. The one with gal was, crossing two passions of mind gaming and, and data.

[00:42:45] Bhav: So that was a really good one. So I won’t repeat that. I really enjoyed the episode we did with Steen Raus, where we were talking about from cost centers to profit centers. I think that for me has been such a. A key part of the way I think about analytics. And it was nice to have that episode. And I think we bounced a lot back and forth and there were some disagreements and some aggressive agreements as well.

[00:43:05] Bhav: So that was a really good one. The one with Ola that we recorded recently about what it’s like doing analytics at a, in a, for a vc, I think that was a really interesting one. The most recent one with Jorge that we recorded around marketing, incrementality attribution, and I think that one was one that stuck with me and actually that I recently followed up a bit more on that was around the eco econometric modeling and using synthetic user groups to, to be able to run, you know, to try to create an AB test where you can’t create an AB test.

[00:43:38] Bhav: And I thought that was fun, fascinating. And I actually went away and did further research about it and actually started bringing that conversation in-house to where I work. And I think those are the types of episodes that really stick with me. Yes, there are some great discussions across the board, but the ones where I’ve gone and actively.

[00:43:56] Bhav: Tried to do something different as a result of, and, and the one with Jorge was a, was, you know, was a really good one as well. So I, I don’t know, it’s really hard. I think Toan, the one you and I recorded, just, you know, where someone dropped us a note or someone put a question in Measure Slack about how do you develop or what does the, what is the, what are the skill sets of a medium to senior analyst?

[00:44:14] Bhav: Because a lot of the content out there is really about breaking it in, breaking into the analytics world and, you know, the entry points for data. So actually that discussion around like, what does a senior or a mid-level analyst do inspired by a, you know, comment off of measure measure. Slack, to me, was one that stuck out quite, quite a lot.

[00:44:33] Bhav: I, I don’t know, I, it’s hard, like there’s so many, I, my brain can’t even go back past like two episodes, so I’m really pushing myself. But they were the ones that have really stuck out with me. I’m sure there were many more that I can’t even, can’t even remember. I know, and, like Dan said, we’ve.

[00:44:48] Bhav: So many of our episodes end with just Dan and I reflecting afterwards with a big sigh. Like, wow, that was good. Like, how interesting. And that’s the part we don’t offer, that doesn’t make it onto the, the, the, the show notes, the intro part of the podcast. So I dunno so many, so many to pick 

[00:45:04] Dara: from it. It, it is, it was always going to be a tough question.

[00:45:07] Dara: And, and, and I guess this second one, you, you’ve both kind of answered this a little bit, but I was going to ask you if there’s any, any kind of standout things that you’ve, I’ll keep this one quite open. So are there anything that you’ve kind of learned that really kind of was quite, you know, really I.

[00:45:24] Dara: Something quiet, you know, significant that you learned from one of the conversations, or it could be something that surprised you or shocked you into changing your mind. Anything like that stands out. Again, I know it’s tough when you’re going back so many episodes, but was there anything that really kind of changed your thinking or changed your understanding of anything or, or, or something that you just didn’t know before that, you know, suddenly opened your eyes?

[00:45:48] Dara: Yeah, 

[00:45:49] Bhav: I’m going to go with the synthetic control groups. I think that was, that rocked my world to the point where I spent the next like three days watching YouTube videos, trying to construct synthetic control group models in, in real life. And seeing that as a potential future topic that I want to delve into.

[00:46:08] Bhav: And I’ve, I’ve already sort of like 10 times the knowledge I had before going to that episode. so I think for me that one sticks out like a sore thumb. probably recency bias as well, just because of the most recent one, but I’m going to go with that. 

[00:46:20] Dan: I have to mention again, the, the, the, the episode with Ken Williams on modern marketing.

[00:46:27] Dan: purely because it, it, it changed so much about how I talk about my job. Like I was a bit of a, I suppose what we would’ve called a web analytics purist, right? You know, working with web analytics tools for the sake of collecting data and using it in different sorts of applications. But I’m like, oh, that’s not me.

[00:46:44] Dan: I’m not that. I’m here, I’m doing my thing. and, and I think it helped me kind of connect a lot of dots that are like with the changing industry, the changing technology, the landscape, the people in it, and realizing that, you know, and now again, people might be slightly annoyed at me for saying this all the time, but I always say that I’m a marketing analytics or marketing.

[00:47:02] Dan: What have I started saying? I actually can’t remember the, I’ve got a word that I assume is plastered on LinkedIn and, and of my other profiles and places, but it’s like marketing measurement and analytics specialist or something like that called it. But that was a direct reaction of that, where it’s like.

[00:47:15] Dan: marketing is the world that I play in. It’s where I’ve invested the time to learn and understand the applications and to kind of find value in data. And so like, why am I scared of putting that in my explanation? Why, why, why have I always shied away from saying I’m in marketing? Actually, I am.

[00:47:32] Dan: And absolutely, I am. I’m, I’m just in the, the kind of data and tech side of marketing and there’s nothing, you know, that there’s that. So, that, that, that’s the kind of like the, the thing that’s changed a lot, similar to what you were saying, BTH around. Like, it kind of like, I, I, I just spent ages thinking about it afterwards and I wrote a bunch of stuff and posted and shared some stuff on social media and stuff about that.

[00:47:50] Dan: But I think so. I kind of abstract it away from the learning and the episodes. I think actually just doing the podcast has, has opened up not, not open doors, that’s the wrong way of saying it, but it’s like, it’s made me realize like, so Dara, we, we talked about this before on the podcast, but if anyone hasn’t listened to those, incredible backlog we’ve got of these weird episodes where we kind of go self-referential.

[00:48:11] Dan: we, we started this as a way of, me and Dara, used to work in the office together all the time and go for a drink after and moan and, and, you know, correct the world and right wrongs and, and talk about the industry in lots of different ways. And when Covid came along, we couldn’t do that. And so this was a way for us to vent, to scratch that itch, to discuss, to continue our relationship and keep it going.

[00:48:32] Dan: And we thought, why the hell not record it and put this out? And it was just a bit of an experiment and. And I realized from there, like how many people, we don’t have the biggest listener base, and if you are listening at this point, thank you so much. But, you know, people have come up to us and said, oh, I listen.

[00:48:46] Dan: It’s great. Thank you for doing it. And, that weird kind of feedback loop and finding people that have listened to it and reached out to us and enabled me to connect to other people has been fantastic. And I just like, you know, there’s a lot of people that might feel like superheroes or like the kind of famous people in the industry.

[00:49:02] Dan: They’re just human beings and they like to chat as well. And I find that the most rewarding part of this whole experience, not the learning from doing the podcast, but from doing the podcast itself. 

[00:49:11] Bhav: I was, I, yeah, I completely echo what Dan said. A big part of this has been the meta learning experience of just doing the episode itself, meeting so many great people, and as Dan said.

[00:49:20] Bhav: You know, when you’re at Measure camp and someone comes up to you and says, Hey, you know, we really like the episode, or, I really like the, the, the measure pod and I really like the podcast. It’s kind of nice actually that there are people who are listening to it and because sometimes I feel like it’s just Dan, you and me and Dara, when you were part of it, just the three of us having a chat.

[00:49:35] Dara: I love those answers, Anne. And you, you, you’re both making this really easy for me as well ’cause you keep segueing into the next question, which makes my job a lot easier. You’re saying our first rodeo. I know, but just before I move on to the next question, I I, something that really stood out to me there as well is, like you Dan, you made, made the point about like, people sometimes thinking people in the industry are these kind of heroes and not realizing that they’re just people as well.

[00:49:58] Dara: And actually hearing the two of you talking about stuff that you’ve genuinely learned or that changed your view on things, I think hopefully that’s really good for our listeners as well because. A lot of the episodes go into a lot of detail. They’re very technical, with a lot of very validated opinions.

[00:50:14] Dara: And actually what you’ve both just done is you’ve shown that actually you’re still learning. And as much as you know, and even though you’ve been doing this for decades and decades and decades and decades and decades, easy now, you’re still learning. So I thought that was great. but, but on the point kind of about the, the kind of meta learning and what you get from actually having the conversations, has, has doing the podcast, do you find it’s actually changed your, the way you do your job in any way?

[00:50:42] Dara: So either as a practitioner or even in terms of how you’re doing outreach or how you’re speaking at events or, or speaking to people or writing. Have you, do you feel like these conversations have kind of influenced your, your day to day in any way? 

[00:50:56] Bhav: Yeah. I’m going to lead on this one just because I feel like it’s definitely helped me when we think about it.

[00:51:01] Bhav: For many people, like previously before I joined the ME pod, maybe I’d recorded a few episodes here and there with the Measure pod and maybe some other places. But you go on as a guest, which means the expectation is that people want to hear your viewpoints and people love talking about themselves and I, and, and sharing their views with the world.

[00:51:16] Bhav: It’s such an easy thing to do. But actually one of the best skill sets that you gain from being a podcast host is you learn to listen and you learn to ask incisive questions. And I think that that combination of listening and asking incisive questions leads to really wholesome conversations and discussions that then lead to you yourself learning something.

[00:51:37] Bhav: Maybe you are changing your view on the world on something, or you kind of walk away with mutual respect for other people and things like that. So for me, I just, I I, I feel like, you know, the, the key application, yes, of course there’s been things that I can apply to my day-to-day job, but the biggest thing has been that ability to listen, listen intently, and respond with a question or something insightful that.

[00:52:00] Bhav: Allows the conversation to move forward. So that, I dunno, that’s, that’s, that’s my non-perfect answer. It’s been a long time since I’ve been on this side of the chair, by the way, Dara, I’m usually where you are. So it’s, it’s, yeah. I, I miss your seat. 

[00:52:15] Dan: Yeah, I mean, I, I don’t want to echo the whole, the whole of that sentiment.

[00:52:18] Dan: I’ll just say I agree. for, for me, and, and whatever, thing you subscribe to, whether it’s like a Myers-Briggs or a color system, or some kind of personality assessment from a working relationship, from a work perspective, we’ve been, I’ve done them over the years and, and it’s always been relatively interesting learning about myself and other people.

[00:52:38] Dan: But like for me, I’m a, I’m a, I speak quickly. I don’t think before I speak often. And also, like, being, being truly listening and empathetic is a, is a learn skill, right? Something I’ve been working on over many years, and it’s just us, you know, we all, we all kind of get there in the middle somewhere, but we have to start from somewhere.

[00:52:56] Dan: So I’m starting from. Perspective. And so it’s really helped me learn and develop that muscle, I suppose, for listening and responding and stuff. And I don’t always get it right, but it, but it’s definitely helped me understand that better about myself and, and develop that muscle, that reflex, that skill, which I can take into, you know, my personal relationships as well as my work relationships as well.

[00:53:18] Dan: But there is another thing that I found has happened because you are so used to meeting people and hosting essentially. So I also moderate a conference, and Bhav, help out with you at CRAP Talks London. And since then I’ve started up with a couple of other people, of course CRAP Talks Brighton, and it’s just this way of like, it’s this idea of facilitating something.

[00:53:41] Dan: Whether it’s a meetup, a conference stage or a podcast, I love it. I really enjoy this process. And it’s, it is kind of one of the, one of the teary moments of like, you know, stepping down from this podcast is like, I love this, I love this process, I love this. Creating an environment that’s welcoming and people come in.

[00:53:59] Dan: It’s like, it’s, it is like inviting people around your house. And I’ve, and I’ve. Absolutely kept to every opportunity of doing that in different applications. So starting with this podcast, kind of developing this kind of li a like for it, this taste for it. And since then, gone into this events and conference world and other things, and being a facilitator, a moderator, a, a, a host as it were, has been.

[00:54:21] Dan: Yeah, it’s, it, it’s amazing. And, I’ve, I’ve sorted it out elsewhere as well. 

[00:54:27] Dara: I think I’m just going to, this has been a really great conversation. I think I’m just going to ask one more question and then we can, we can probably wrap it up. You, you are both obviously great ambassadors for getting involved in the industry and getting out there and sharing knowledge and meeting people and, and, and networking.

[00:54:43] Dara: And, what advice would you give to somebody who’s maybe a little less involved, but really has that desire to, you know, they’ve got something to say and they want to, whether it’s through a podcast or a blog, or going to events. Is there any advice you’d give to somebody who’s maybe. Just starting out, or, or is very good at what they do already and experience, but they just haven’t really gotten themselves out of their own, you know, their own job or their own world.

[00:55:09] Dara: How would you advise somebody to start to share their voice more like, like you 

[00:55:14] Bhav: guys have you done? It’s, I mean, this answer is somewhat cliche, but it is just, just do it. Right? I think the magic happens at the end of your comfort zone, and everything Dan said was completely true. Like, one of the most rewarding parts of being a podcast host or being an event organizer is seeing people come and listen or take part or, you know, invest and learn and grow and, and to build that network is, it’s priceless.

[00:55:41] Bhav: And I don’t mean priceless in the sense that, you know, there’s, you can get a job out of it or you’ll guarantee to win some business out of it or anything like that. There is just something wholesome about meeting people who share the interests that you have. And that’s not normal then, you know, if we go back 15, 20 years, it wasn’t easy to find like-minded people.

[00:55:59] Bhav: So if you’re in an environment where you can also now facilitate and create that for other people, to me it’s just highly rewarding. And I can’t stress enough that if you can just get over that fear of doing it or what will people think or I can’t do this, or I’m not an expert. Me and Dan are far from experts in what we do, yet we do it week in and week out.

[00:56:19] Bhav: And the idea, you, you proved that in the 

[00:56:20] Dan: quiz, Bob. Oh, thank you. You proved that 

[00:56:22] Bhav: earlier. but the idea is that you don’t have to be, you just have to want to do it. And when you’ve got the motivation and the passion, the drive to do it, just, you know, put that fear, that guy that’s telling you no, or that lady that’s telling you no, you know, on the back of your mind and just move forward with it.

[00:56:39] Bhav: And I promise you, when you get over that first hurdle, you do your first one, the euphoria and the adrenaline of having completed an event or recorded an episode will. Help you realize that it was worth it or, you know, all along, and actually you’ll kick yourself and not do it sooner. 

[00:56:55] Dan: For sure. I think there’s, I always, when I, when I talk to people about this kind of stuff, I always say there’s like, there’s no, you don’t feel obligated to have to do this.

[00:57:03] Dan: You don’t have to. Be a big part of the industry, right? You don’t have to. If you want to, it is there and the industry will have you and they’ll thank you for it. But if you don’t want to, that’s also fine. I always think about things I don’t understand. Are you hungry for it? Are you not getting enough from your day-to-day job or is it not scratching an itch that you have?

[00:57:22] Dan: And I think that’s a good way of kind of like, you know, testing out what, what works for you because it’s easy for us to say, attend events, come to super week, which is a week event long in Hungary, or come to measure camp, which is a Saturday, and or come to the CRAP talks, which are an evening during the week.

[00:57:37] Dan: I mean, these are all extracurricular activities and you’ve gotta want to do it and want to be there to attend that, but you don’t have to. I mean, when we talk about writing or content creation or podcasting, it could be internal as well. So if you’ve, if you are lucky enough to work with a team of people.

[00:57:51] Dan: Well, how about you run lunch and learn for the wider teams, like the marketing team for example. What, what about, Studying up or mentoring or having a team of people that you manage. I mean, that is a very rewarding aspect where you can share what you know and pass that torch on in different ways.

[00:58:06] Dan: That’s all within the confines of the nine till five or whatever it is that you do. Right? So I always think that just because you know, you see, like I, you know, for example, I look at Bab being very prolific writing on LinkedIn and I love it and I follow as much as I can, as much as the algorithm allows me to Bab, I have to say.

[00:58:21] Dan: but the, but the other thing is like, you don’t, you don’t have to look to B and be like, oh, I should be sharing on LinkedIn. That’s not, it doesn’t have to be your way to contribute back. It could be that you are doing so much to your team of five people in your organization, that that is you contributing back because they then go off and they can pass it down and they kind of inherit that.

[00:58:40] Dan: They adapt it, they make it their own and they can pass it on in their own way. So I, maybe I’m going slightly messer and abstract with this stuff, but you know, if you want to share what you know. By talking to someone about it, you are already doing that. yes, there are every variation of event meetup, podcast, networking events that you can do, but, you know, think of it as inside of work as well.

[00:59:03] Dan: ’cause I think that’s super rewarding, as well as being able to present on a big screen and get a couple of photos at a conference. 

[00:59:12] Dara: Yeah. Really good advice from both of you. Okay. I think we can, we can wrap it up there guys. I’ve really, really enjoyed that. I kind of enjoyed the chat, but really enjoyed the quiz earlier that that was, that was the, that was the highlight for me.

[00:59:26] Dara: That final, final question, guys. Any, any future podcasting plans? 

[00:59:31] Dan: Well, yes, absolutely yes. I love this medium. I’m a huge consumer of podcasts and yeah, I still want to play in this space. so my time with the measure pod has come to a close and, you know, a hundred and. 20 to 150 episodes. I can’t even remember how many episodes we’ve done.

[00:59:48] Dan: so it’s, it’s time for a change. it, I’ll be doing something new sometime soon. Once that’s all figured out and planned out. you won’t hear the last of me for sure. If you’re interested in finding what that, if you’re interested in any of that stuff, the probably best just to follow me on LinkedIn and connect that way.

[01:00:04] Dan: And when it’s ready it will be all over. All over there. 

[01:00:08] Dara: We’ll be on each other’s podcast, like, what do you call it when they do a TV crossover? Be like The Simpsons and Future Do a crossover episode. Yeah. I love it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, 

[01:00:18] Bhav: just swap seats. Sorry, BI No, that’s okay. I’m, I, I obviously, I dunno what the future looks like at the moment.

[01:00:27] Bhav: I will probably join Dan on something else so that, you know, we do make a good pair. Dara, of course, you know, would love to be a trio again. but understandably, you know, you are needed, on the measure pod and your, your return is actually amazing. I think it creates, it creates an opportunity for some freshness.

[01:00:47] Bhav: Again, maybe Dan and I have become a little bit stale. I hope we haven’t become stale. Something is in good, in good hands. Yeah, exactly. But I’ll, I mean, I’ll still have the CRAP talks going on and that’s, that Will and, and the team at, measure Pod and Measurelab and everywhere else. You know, you guys have always been such great supporters of everything that I’ve been up to, and I look forward to seeing all of you at these, you know, certainly other CRAP talks, events, but as you said in some crossover episode specials as well.

[01:01:16] Dan: So Dara question for you. What’s happening with the measure pod? What grand plans do you have? Like, where’s it going? What’s happening next? Well, you know, the 

[01:01:23] Dara: bombshells have been dropped. I’m back out of retirement. I’ve been, I’ve been wheeled back out of a dusty, dusty cupboard. And this has been really fun.

[01:01:33] Dara: I mean, what a nice way to get back into it. This was, yeah, this was a nice gentle easing back in, I mean, not gentle for you guys with the quiz, but, this was a nice episode for me to come back outta retirement. So I’m going to pick back up the hosting. I’m going to have a, we’re going to shake things up.

[01:01:49] Dara: I’m going to have a new one. A new co-host who’s going to be Matthew Husson, who’s been on the podcast before. so listeners should know Matthew. and we’re going to take a little bit of a break, just to get our heads together and come up with a little bit of a refresh on the format. and we’ll be back with everybody soon.

[01:02:08] Dara: So, watch this space. 

[01:02:11] Dan: That’s it for this week. Thank you for listening. We’ll be back soon with another episode of the Measure Pod. You can subscribe on whatever platform you are listening to this on to make sure you never miss an episode. You can also leave us a review if you can, on any of these platforms.

[01:02:23] Dan: We’re also over on YouTube if you want to see our lovely faces and our lovely guest faces while we do this as well. Make sure to subscribe to the Mesh Lab channel to make sure you never miss an episode as they come out. If you’ll leave us a review, that’ll be hugely appreciated. You can do that on most of the podcast applications, or that is a form in the show notes.

[01:02:40] Dan: You can leave feedback directly to me and Bhav. Thank you for listening, and we’ll see you on the next one.

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