#105 A web analyst’s guide to app analytics (with Juliana Jackson @ Monks)

Intro | Topic | Outro

Intro

[00:00:00] Dan: Welcome back to The Measure Pod with me, Daniel Perry Reed. I’m the Principal Analytics Consultant at Measurelab. And of course we have Bhav Patel, Director of Experimentation and Analytics at LeanConvert. Now Bhav, this was episode 105. We just finished recording with the one and only Juliana Jackson, or I suppose now I’m doubting every time I pronounce her name.

[00:00:34] Dan: Either way, we just just wrapped up a podcast talking with Juliana. Juliana, you know about everything really we could think about everything from, well, I suppose the impetus of the episode was me kind of reading a lot of her content around app analytics from a web analytics perspective. But we covered a lot of ground. What did you do, what do you think? 

[00:00:50] Bhav: Yeah, I mean, if there’s ever one guest that was never going to keep us on topic of what we plan to talk about, it was going to be Juliana. And I fully expected this one to take twists and turns. And they’re really interesting. I think what Juliana brings to everything she does is that, is that level of sort of like, personality.

[00:01:07] Bhav: You know, she’s such a wonderful human being. She’s got such a great background in sales and product and training and analytics now. So yeah, it was great. I also, I think I didn’t really count, but I think she dropped the most S and F bombs we’ve ever had on an episode so far. So if you are listening, please do.

[00:01:25] Bhav: Make sure your kids aren’t around. But it was really interesting. I think we could have gone as usual, so much deeper into it. I think the world of app analytics outside of sort of like technical implementation, there is so much kind of like business value and real. You know, it doesn’t make sense conversations that people need to have.

[00:01:42] Bhav: And if so, what role does apps play, what, you know, what role do apps play inside there in people’s ecosystems? I think that’s a really interesting topic. And I know we touched on that towards the back end of the call. It was a, it was a, it was a fantastic episode and I always like speaking to Juliana, so I think, you know, you’re in for a ride. This one is fun. 

[00:02:00] Dan: Absolutely. Bhav, is there anything before we jump into this episode? Is there anything that you want to plug anything going on in the world above that you want to let our listeners know about? 

[00:02:08] Bhav: Oh, I always, I never prepped for this question. This is the one question I never prepped for. No, as always, I’m going to say join the Slack community, the Crap Talk Slack community, and connect with me on LinkedIn or follow my posts on LinkedIn and Twitter, and that’s, that’s, that’s it really today. 

[00:02:27] Dan: Awesome. I’ve got a twofer, so I’m going to take, I’m going to take one of them if that’s all right then. So first of all for sure, I just wanted to mention that Juliana is both on the crap Slack community, but also measure Slack. So, so are both of us, you can find us out on there. I’ve got two things. One thing that I, I’d never got a chance to say, but like I’ve been dabbling myself with the app analytics space and I’ve actually built a couple of apps.

[00:02:46] Dan: I’ve been writing a little bit about it myself over on my blog. Now the blog has had a bit of a a lack of TLC for a little while, but it’s analytics. co. uk that’s. D a N analytics. So that’s my name. So I’ll put a link into the show notes and there’s a bunch of stuff around my experience, building apps in unity games and analytics around that.

[00:03:04] Dan: Cause I, I very similar to, and one of the reasons I wanted to get Juliana on is because like just going for it and learning it and investing some time into playing with it and then writing about You know, it surprises me that more people don’t do that. And actually I think you’re kind of kindred spirits in a way of like, Oh, I just gave it a go.

[00:03:20] Dan: I want to learn about apps. So I’m going to learn how to build an app and try it for myself. Do you know what I mean? It’s just that kind of self starter mentality. And the last thing to mention is that this is a work thing. We talked a lot around Google Analytics 4 in this episode. But I do train people in Google Analytics 4, and I’ve got a training course coming up at the start of September.

[00:03:38] Dan: So if you’re listening to any, any time around the time this comes out get in touch with me, go onto the measure lab website, links in the show notes. I’ve got a six week cohort program coming up where I get to work with you one on one and talk about all things, Google analytics, marketing product, and everything else in between. So formal work based plug over, over to you. 

[00:03:56] Bhav: Juliana is a truly inspirational person. Her background, her origin story is probably one of the most phenomenal origin stories we’ve had so far on this, on this, on this podcast. So listen and enjoy. 

[00:04:09] Dan: So today we are joined by the one and only Juliana Jackson. So first of all, Juliana, thank you so much for joining us. 

[00:04:16] Juliana: So happy to be here. And you know, it’s nice to meet you for the first time and always good to see Mr Bhav here. 

[00:04:22] Dan: Thank you so much for coming on. Let’s, let’s jump in and let’s get the introductions kind of out of the way. So we don’t like to do an introduction mainly because I can’t be remembering this many words and also I don’t have time to research it.

Topic

[00:04:34] Dan: So we ask our guests to introduce themselves for us. So Juliana who are you? Where are you? And give us a bit of your background to the point where you’re talking to me and Bhav about analytic stuff today. 

[00:04:44] Juliana: It all started on a hot summer day in 1990, when my mother was at work and I decided to come out.

[00:04:54] Juliana: No, I’m kidding. I’m Juliana, or Juliana. Juliana for people that cannot pronounce my name. That happens a lot. And I do stuff on the internet. And fast forward, I’m here with you guys today. I don’t like to talk about my, I know, I know this might sound fake as fuck. Also, if you have a PG, you’re going to lose it.

[00:05:12] Juliana: Yeah, so I know this might sound fake as fuck, given that I live on the internet and I’m on LinkedIn, but I really don’t like to talk about myself that much, but I do the best way I can say it is I do stuff on the internet. 

[00:05:23] Bhav: I can vouch for that. Actually, Julian, you do try to avoid topics about you. I have noticed this now that I think about it.

[00:05:30] Juliana: Yeah, I don’t like to. 

[00:05:31] Dan: Well, and instead of talking about yourself, Juliana and I want to be very conscious of how I say your name now, because I’m going to be terrified the whole way through tell us about what you do, like what, what, what do you, what do you do for work? Where do you work and what are you working on at the moment?

[00:05:43] Juliana: Yeah. So currently I work at MediaMonks. I’m a, an associate director for digital experience and data, but what that does mean actually is just I’m using data to build strategies for kind of like long term growth. I work mostly with product teams. Which are the new experimentation teams. I have a lot of stuff and opinions about that, but let’s, let’s wait.

[00:06:06] Juliana: So I work mostly with product teams that typically do not have an experimentation program. So I’m kind of trying to teach them how to build an experimentation program. I mostly work with banks and mobile labs. So like very highly regulated industries. So all the stuff that you would read on LinkedIn that you would say, Oh, I should apply this, you know, to my client.

[00:06:27] Juliana: It never works in banks. So kind of like in a, it’s, it’s fun. Like it’s challenging. I will say that I don’t have any boring days. And yeah, I’ve been in digital marketing for 14 years. Yeah. 14 years I’ve been doing this. I started in sales. selling the internet over the phone and now, you know, I’m selling other shit on the internet as well.

[00:06:51] Juliana: This is the worst intro ever, but I don’t like the most honest. It’s real. Yeah. It’s like, I have nothing, you know, like I just come and look at numbers and draw conclusions. That’s it. 

[00:07:05] Bhav: I mean, you’ve just touched on what every analyst should be doing, right? Looking at numbers and drawing conclusions. 

[00:07:11] Juliana: That’s, that’s what I get paid for.

[00:07:14] Dan: Yeah. It’s that easy, right? That easy. Well, look, Juliana. So if, if people if people don’t know of you the way I know you is that you do a blog with under your name, which is an awesome resource for getting into all sorts of stuff. That’s the kind of the impetus for this conversation.

[00:07:27] Dan: I want to talk to you about app analytics and coming at it from a perspective of a web analyst. Because I think there’s a lot of web people trying to figure out the app world and really not understanding it a lot, including myself in that. But also you do a podcast as well. So tell us a bit about the podcast that you do with Simo.

[00:07:43] Juliana: Yeah. So actually maybe not a lot of people know about this, but I started the podcast on my own in 20. 21, maybe. So the first season, it was just me talking to you know, data analysts about their mental models, about how they’re using their mental models to be better at their jobs, how they can tell stories with data using, you know, psychology and behavioural, you know, it was very esoteric.

[00:08:07] Juliana: My first season, like, actually, it’s very underrated. All the episodes are really esoteric, we’re talking about horoscopes, about self segmentation, it’s, it’s, it’s very deep. And the podcast did good given that nobody, you know, I, I was, you know, more irrelevant than I am right now. So like the podcast did good given that.

[00:08:26] Juliana: So I remember I wrote on LinkedIn that, you know, like, Hey, this is the last first and last year. Thanks everybody for what happened. And then I got the message from Spotify and my numbers were insane. I was like, Oh shit, people actually like this shit. People like to listen to my rambles. So I was in back in that year, DHL was doing this analytic summit.

[00:08:47] Juliana: It was still from DHL that was that invited me. So I was speaking at that event and Simo was speaking at that event at the same time. So during my talk, which I think it was with Tim Coppens. Simo messages me on Slack and says, Hey, I saw your LinkedIn post. I think your podcast is dope. Would you like to do it with me?

[00:09:07] Juliana: I was like, Oh shit. It’s like, Oh, I was like, I’m not going to read this right now. I exited Slack. I didn’t even know how to react to it. I was like, and then I come back to him and I, my first message was, are you sure? Are you sure you want to do this? And he was like, yeah, like what’s wrong? You know, like, I think you’re great.

[00:09:29] Juliana: Really? I was like, why? So anyway, long story short, we had the call and the rest is history. Like we’re at our second year of doing it together for some reason people actually like it. Just dropping the 15, 000 downloads plus so far. Just, just, just saying, ah, just saying, but no, that’s how it happened. I was kind of like shocked that somebody like Simo would want, because we’re very different.

[00:09:55] Juliana: Like I am. You know, craziest shit and he’s like the most calm person in the world, but it works. It works. So that’s how how the podcast you know came together. And it’s funny because every time I go to different events and I speak up, everybody’s like, Oh, you’re the girl in Simo’s podcast. Yes. I’m Alfred. I’ve been Alfred, so this is my relationship. 

[00:10:17] Dan: As someone that listened for that first season, I don’t think of it as Seema’s podcast and you as the guest, this is very much your podcast, you know, so for sure. And I did enjoy that first season as well. Like it’s, it’s definitely one to go back to, by the way, if anyone’s listening, that’s not sure of this podcast, there’ll be links to everything in the show notes and definitely check it out.

[00:10:34] Dan: And we can point you there, but Juliana, this, this is awesome. And hopefully I don’t know. We chatted just before recording, hopefully new episodes soon. 

[00:10:42] Juliana: Yes. We are on a break. We were on a break. Exactly. That’s exactly what I was thinking. But no, like Simo goes in the summertime, Simo goes to his lake house.

[00:10:55] Juliana: And he’s like completely, you know, there, and he only, he still, he still won’t measure slack. Like, he still, if it’s a GPM question, he’s still going to answer to it. But we are planning to get back at it probably at the end of this month. We do not have a guest list yet. We only have an episode upcoming scheduled with Michael King.

[00:11:14] Juliana: From Ipool rank. And I think we also have one with Dana Di Tommaso. And we’re going to break the promise that I made to people that I’m not going to talk about GA4 again. But it comes right back at me, you know, GA4. I’m so tired of, I hope you guys don’t want to talk about GA4 because no,.

[00:11:31] Dan: No, I tell you what, instead of talking about GA4, let’s talk about Firebase Analytics, Google Analytics for Firebase, everything but GA4, tell us about that.

[00:11:38] Dan: I mean, look, we don’t have to talk about Google Analytics 4, and I think it’s become a bit of a drinking game with this, and it’s something that Bhav’s very aware of, like, not mentioning. But one of the things that I wanted Talk about, I think revolves around that within the analytics ecosystem, especially for apps because Firebase has become such a, I remember reading your article which is called mobile app ecosystem introduction to app stores, Firebase and analytics.

[00:12:00] Dan: And there’s one thing in there you said, which is like. It’s the best user interface. Firebase is the best user interface for all Google products. And I just, I completely agree with you. It’s like, it’s probably the best tool. I mean, they bought Firebase and they’ve adapted it. But like the, the community is incredible.

[00:12:13] Dan: The people that work there, the marketing stuff they do is awesome. Like the design is pretty cool. Like it works really well. It just doesn’t feel very Google, right? Everything seems to be. Good in that ecosystem. Yeah, exactly. Working. And then all of a sudden they expand it to web, call it Google analytics and everyone’s really mad.

[00:12:29] Dan: So we don’t have to talk about Google analytics, but I definitely want to talk about Firebase because it’s such a different world for people that are used to the web analytics world to go into. So maybe, maybe talk to us a little bit, like, I mean, you’re, you, you’ve been writing about this for a little while.

[00:12:41] Dan: Like what was your foray into the world of apps, analytics and Firebase and things like that? 

[00:12:46] Juliana: It’s a, it’s actually great, I don’t think I ever told that story. So it’s a great question. When I started working, I need to go back in time a bit. So I was like, okay, so I can be a digital analyst. Why not?

[00:12:58] Juliana: So funny enough, you actually do need data experience to be a digital analyst. So I remember I messaged Bhav. On Twitter. Yeah. I’m going to tell the mushy story about, so I always looked up to Bhav because, you know, back then he was at Hoppy and he’s like this, you know, product analytics, you know, I was fangirling him badly.

[00:13:18] Juliana: You know, I still do, you know, like he’s, he’s the homie now, but still I was, you know, I appreciated his work and I pinged him on Twitter and I said, you know, I sent him a long ass message. Cause that’s how I text. I have ADHD. So you will get 3000 texts from me to say one thing. So I messaged him and I said, yo, like, you seem to be exactly in the place that I want to be.

[00:13:37] Juliana: Like, how did you get there? So Bhav, you know, long story short, he made time to chat with me. He didn’t, we never talked to each other. So he took time out of his day and I didn’t know back then, but he was actually going through all that hopping drama that everybody knows about afterwards. And he still had time to chat with me, which makes it even like more nice.

[00:13:56] Juliana: And he showed me his frameworks, like how he thinks about stuff, like how he. approaches data. And it was very helpful to me because then in that moment, I realised that my product experience and my marketing and business experience are actually shit that misses from what web analysts or app analysts are doing right now that are just focused on implementation.

[00:14:17] Juliana: So I took all the courses, of course, like how, you know, you set up, you know, like, I set up a consent vote before I set up, you know, like GA4 for different clients. So I ended up working at MediaMonks and in the first six months, that’s all I did, just actual implementation, because. I needed the whole story, so how did I get hired there was like I, I, I went on Twitter and I started stalking bug Paul that used to be there, and Julian, and I said you guys need to hire me, like I’m the shit you know and they were like okay but can you please apply first, it was so funny.

[00:14:50] Juliana: So I applied and I interviewed, I had a test. I passed it. I remember in the test, there was an Adobe section and they were asking about my experience with Adobe. And I remember I answered all the questions. I never have been so rich to use Adobe. Like that’s legit was my question to all of that. And I think that’s what kind of like made them laugh because the culture here in Media Monks is still very like fun, like just very open.

[00:15:14] Juliana: So I think that’s what saved me. So yeah. And the first client that I got put on as soon as I got to MediaMonks was Starbucks. And I can speak about this because the case study is public, so I can actually tell the story. So I work with Starbucks EMEA, so not the U.S. So we have been building their apps for nine years.

[00:15:35] Juliana: at MediaMonks. Like, all of them are built by us, because we also have a developer and product team. Really amazing people. Shouts to Mark Abraham, if you hear this. Best product manager we have. And I was put on that client, and I was like, oh my, holy shit, it’s Starbucks. You know, and I’m a big Starbucks fan.

[00:15:54] Juliana: And as I started, you know, like we were doing the J4 implementation and I was, you know, using Firebase, we’re still using Firebase for that. And I started going through config, you know, like remote config, I started going through their documentation and I said, Oh! But look, you’re doing all this stuff.

[00:16:11] Juliana: Let’s A B test this. Let’s do some more A/B test. Let’s do that. Let’s do that. And then they were saying like, okay, we want to, you know, start, you know, doing more experiments and so on. Because the team there is very new. Like keep in mind, this is not us, it’s EMEA. It’s a very different everything. So basically the client told me at some, that point he said like, do you think based on how much we invest in the app and the ads, we are getting the same type of loyalty and satisfaction from the users.

[00:16:39] Juliana: And I was like, Oh shit, because before this, I used to work in e commerce and I had the nickname as the COV lady, because I was, I actually co authored the Customer Lifetime Value Academy with Valentin when I was at OmniConvert, like COV is my shit. So I was like, Oh shit, you know, I started getting sweats, like this is a genuine story.

[00:17:03] Juliana: So I looked in their app store at that time, some months before I recorded a video on my YouTube channel with Millie Casey. And by then she used to be the data science, least a lead at Uber. Now she’s at Google. And with with Mike Mike Robbins, that’s a Snowplow right now, but he used to be a popular data.

[00:17:21] Juliana: So I’ll record an episode with them on my YouTube channel where we use GPT 3 To do an np N-L-P-A-I from Google to do sentiment analysis on IMDB reviews. So me having that in mind, I was ready, you know, like, fuck it, let’s go. So I saw that, you know, these guys had tons of reviews because the app is highly used in, you know, in Europe, especially in the UK.

[00:17:46] Juliana: So I said like, what if we analyse these reviews using natural language processing and people were like, Oh, Really? I was like, yes, we won’t do it with app script ’cause I’m not mental. ’cause then it’s not that safe . But let’s actually use the Google Cloud. And by that time I, you know, I understand statistics a bit.

[00:18:03] Juliana: I understand probabilistic, I understand what the PCA is, I know what Cains are like. I actually educated myself to come with this idea. So that is when Emir keep in mind, this is an app. So Krasimir, I hope this makes sense. I’m trying, like, I’m really trying to tell the story right now. So I was there with Starbucks, excited as fuck.

[00:18:21] Juliana: We had the review, so I messaged Krasimir from my team, who’s like the data science lead here in my team at MediaMonk, best data scientist ever. I said brate, because he’s from Bulgaria originally. I said brate, which means bro, it’s like bruv, how you call each other, bruv. I was like, bro, This is it, we need to do it.

[00:18:37] Juliana: And he was like, oh my God, we, I, we can use this BERT model. I was like, yes, let’s use BERT. So basically we analyse all the reviews, we do sentiment analysis, semantic analysis. And then we had so much data that we created the whole experimentation roadmap for the next six months, all tied with product goals, KPIs.

[00:18:56] Juliana: Beautiful. Like it was, it was like one of the hottest shits I’ve ever done in this process. I realised that I learned a lot about apps. I learned that, you know, you cannot do a tracking changes. Like you would go in Google tech manager to add that event. You have to go and talk to your developers. You have to be a nice human being, because if you want to track different events in apps.

[00:19:18] Juliana: You have to modify the app code base, and you cannot do that because that’s skipped under, you know, a lot of locks. So if you have, for instance a web app, it’s a bit more easier. But if you have a native app, you cannot do anything from a tracking perspective. So then is when I realised that, again, my product management experience comes in handy because you talk to developers, you talk to UX, you have to designers.

[00:19:41] Juliana: You need to know how to manage these conversations to you know, to have this to get something done. So I’m getting to the end. So then I was at super week this year and I was outside with Julius from analytics may now we’re smoking a cigarette, drinking something. Don’t smoke is not good for you.

[00:19:58] Juliana: So I was with Julius and he, I was just going on about mobile apps with him. He was like, why the fuck do you don’t, I’m trying to make his accent. Why the fuck you don’t write about it? And I said, I could, right? And I said, look, I have all this shit, you know, I look at my documents. He was like, go ahead and write about it.

[00:20:15] Juliana: Nobody knows this shit. I was like, are you sure? He was like, yeah, just go and write and write. So I said, you know, like I ended up using my internal documentation that I use for my team to, and transform them into articles because I do like to write. So that’s kind of how I ended up with apps and with app store optimization, understanding, you know, the mechanisms, the only spot that I have.

[00:20:38] Juliana: That is I’m not there yet is with mobile measurement partners with attribution. That’s something that, Oh, Jesus, it’s not like I’m, I’m just figuring it out, kind of like the depth of it, but it’s something that we, it’s, it’s complicated, but that’s a very long winded answer. So I’m going to shut up and drink some water.

[00:20:59] Bhav: Okay, I’m going to step in because this is the longest I’ve gone without speaking in a, in the history of my life. And I can’t not step in at this point. So there’s a few things I want to say. One of them is like, your origin story is absolutely brilliant. Because aside from the fact that I get to be part of the origin story, it kind of speaks volumes about people who never take their shots, right?

[00:21:22] Bhav: And for all of its horribleness, Twitter as a platform, you know, when you’re part of a community, like an analytics community just reaching out to people is so important. And I just want to call that, I think like, you know, what’s that saying? You miss a hundred percent of the shots you don’t take. I can’t remember who says, I think it’s like Kobe, but you miss a hundred percent of the shots you don’t take.

[00:21:40] Bhav: And In one story, you took three shots, right? You know, first one with me, one with Doug and the guys at MediaBank, and then again with Starbucks, right? And so from, from, for anyone listening One of the reasons why I really wanted you on the show, Giuliano, was of that energy, that bubbliness, but because of your ability to take risks and the, and I don’t think you have that button that says I might get shut down.

[00:22:03] Bhav: Like, I think like for most human beings who are worried about being shut down, I don’t think that exists. And I think when we spoke, certainly one of the things I realised and I learned about you was the fact that, you know, you’re a go getter. You go out and whether it’s. A chat with me, whether it’s a job, whether it’s some amazing, like piece of work you’re doing with a client right down to like, you know, your ability to go and then do some analysis on attribution models.

[00:22:28] Bhav: You go and take and you learn it on the go. And I think it’s so important to remind everyone that’s listening that you don’t have to have all your shit figured out. Try to figure it out as you go along. And it’s such a, like your journey from product management to analytics is one of my favourite stories. Now, obviously I’ve heard it before, so it’s, I, I’m, but I’m glad everyone else gets to hear it. 

[00:22:47] Dan: Now for our long term listens, it’s no secret that I like to run training courses all around Google analytics, tech manager, and everything in between, check out a full list of courses over at measurelab. co. uk forward slash training to see all the courses and workshops that we have available.

[00:23:00] Dan: Everything from learning Google analytics for to Google tech manager, data visualisation, and short for workshops to cover small specific areas of interest, such as user provided data, generative AI for data analysis, as well as lots of other stuff. uk forward slash training for all the details, or you can click the link in the show notes, or if you’re watching this, scan this QR code now.

[00:23:21] Juliana: Now, and you were like, you were instrumental bro, cause until I talked to you, I didn’t realise that I always thought because. Oh, and what I didn’t say, like, I applied to so many jobs and people rejected me and then when they saw what I can do, they were like I was like, yeah, well, shit, you know, shit happens.

[00:23:39] Juliana: But as you know, remember, I told you, like, I was so depressed. Cause I applied to like hundreds of jobs and everybody was expecting me to be SEMO and Google Tag Manager. And I’m not. Like shit, I’m not. And it’s not my forte. But until I talked to you, I didn’t know that all my business experience and product experience are assets.

[00:23:59] Juliana: I was thinking that this is a handicap that I have and I need to remove it from, you know, who I am to be able to get this job. And it affected me at that time. But after I talked to you, I was like, shit, you know what? I am actually valuable. And yeah, I mean, appreciate what you said. That’s, that’s really kind of you.

[00:24:17] Juliana: And I think you’re correct is because I worked in sales and I did call calling for at least five years out of my 14 years of career, I got so many no’s that it doesn’t faze me anymore when somebody tells me, no, I’m like, whatever, you know. 

[00:24:31] Dan: Move on to the next thing, right? That’s the, that’s the key thing is that I think there’s I think most people, they’ll go into any, any situation and they think that.

[00:24:38] Dan: They’re not the first, they’re, they’re, they’re, there’s, there’s a way to do something and it’s not the way they’re doing it. And they need to figure out like, okay, I’ll go find out how someone’s done this before. But I think, especially when it comes to like putting it back to the kind of writing that you’ve been doing around the app analytics and what, what that person said to you at super week this year was like, just write about it.

[00:24:56] Dan: And no one knows this stuff. And I think that’s such a true statement, which is like, People just assume that they are the, the, the most, the dumbest in the room, that everyone else knows something that they don’t. And actually that’s the worst way to think about things. Cause that’s the opposite of the truth.

[00:25:09] Dan: I think the reality is we’re all figuring this stuff out. And the more that we write, even the kind of what we perceive to be the kind of intro basic or top level views of stuff, the more value that that adds in and it just breaks it down. And especially as a web. Marketing analyst guy coming into working with apps, especially since the world of Google Analytics 4 that has kind of merged, collided those two worlds together.

[00:25:31] Dan: All of a sudden it’s like, go figure it out. You have no choice. And I’m like, okay. And then have to learn another kind of cheat sheet set of acronyms and all this other stuff. And the stuff that you’re writing really helps with that kind of stuff because it breaks it down for people. It makes it more accessible. Right. That’s the key thing. 

[00:25:44] Juliana: It’s kind of like the things that I didn’t have when I started out. Like I just had to figure it out. And I want to say that the most I learned about apps is from devs, because they, if you spend time building a relationship with the developers, with the product people, with the UX, and you don’t treat them differently because they don’t work in data, you will get so many rewards in terms of like knowledge and support, like, The devs that were on this client, best, coolest people ever and smartest shit.

[00:26:15] Juliana: So I learned from them about user ID and how to use it. And when does it make sense? Like I knew about user ID, but I didn’t understand it in the context of apps. I didn’t understand how it works. They taught me how to download, you know, UAT versions on my phone and shake the phone for tweaks and to see the events coming up live.

[00:26:34] Juliana: Like they taught me a lot of stuff. Like I came with the strategy from a machine learning perspective, like stuff that I knew already from A/B testing, stuff that I really knew from experimentation. But I never liked A B testing that much. I’m sorry, Bhav. I never cared so much about A B testing. Not in the sense that, you know what pisses me off about A B testing?

[00:26:53] Bhav: Here we go. This is, now we’re getting into it. Yeah, this is it. Go, go, go, go. Take the gloves off. Take the gloves off. 

[00:26:58] Juliana: Listen, listen, like it’s not that I, I do believe in A B testing, right? Like I, I can, this is what I do. But what bothers me from a product perspective, and I see, I saw somebody on Twitter, It’s this guy that tweets some really smart shit, the product guy, Dale something, you must know him, Bhav.

[00:27:15] Juliana: He always has some pertinent tweets. Dale something. I will send you the link for people afterwards, so I don’t digress. So basically, back when I was in product, people were shitting on me because I was doing things very based, right? I wasn’t avid. I was doing things because I knew how the product works and because I was talking to customers.

[00:27:35] Juliana: So I was doing things. I was pushing towards some features. I was prioritising. But I wasn’t testing. Now it feels that all product teams do is fucking A B test so much that they don’t even know how the product works. Like, what is the, who talks to the client, who knows how the product works? So it’s kind of like got into this fetishism that I just like, I’m like, you know what, before you AB test, what does the product do?

[00:28:00] Juliana: Please take your phone right now and open your app. What does this button do? You know, like kind of like, that’s where I’m at right now with AB testing. So in a way I think I started being a bit enraged by it. Mostly because I’m a product person and I know how people like CRO teams were shitting on me back then because I was very based in what I was doing and that’s fine, but like now, look at it, A B testing every little shit, like spending 3, 000 times to, to, for a nut to cut baskets of butter. Who cares? 

[00:28:31] Bhav: So I think first and foremost, you don’t have to apologise to me about shitting on A B testing. I’m quite pragmatic when it comes to A/B testing. I, I love it. I think it’s a very powerful feature, but I’m not someone who will, who thinks that that’s the answer to every, every single problem.

[00:28:49] Bhav: Because I think if you know, if you A B test everything, you’ll A B test your way into a wall, right? I think if you want to break free, create new sort of like, ceilings that you can break through and you know, you have to do new stuff and you have to speak to people. But I think I do hear you on the on the on the product management.

[00:29:04] Bhav: I think There is the risk where product management now has become feature management and I don’t think that’s strictly a b testing Related right? I think The whole concept of sort of like feature managers and product managers comes from the fact that there is this need to quantify impact. And when people don’t have the tool sets in their, in their arsenal to be able to quantify the changes they’ve made, either through qualitative, quantitative, You know, whatever they result, they revert to A B testing and actually they don’t realise that A/B testing is a tool for making decision decisions.

[00:29:40] Bhav: Yes, but it’s not the only tool. So I, I, I approach A B testing in a very pragmatic way because, and this is why I, I, you know, when you were thinking about transitioning careers, I was trying to reassure you that actually, Okay. The best product analysts think like product managers first, and they take that and they apply it into the analytic space.

[00:30:03] Bhav: And in order to think like a product manager, you need to be able to eat your own dog food. The amount, like when I hire analysts in my team, I always say to them, like, go and use the product, man, like, or lady, just go and use the product, right? Get a feel for it, try and make a purchase, try and find some problems with it.

[00:30:19] Bhav: Because until you understand that you’re never going to be able to really do your job properly. And the same goes for product managers. I think product managers are so focused on their own silos that they forget to take a step back and say, actually, not just how the product works, but how does the product I work, I work on, like what role does that play in the grand scheme of things in the entire ecosystem of our organisation?

[00:30:41] Bhav: So I normally divert and direct product managers, go speak to finance and say, Hey, look, understand how we make money. Because then it’s easier for you to appreciate what you do and understand how it fits into the wider ecosystem. So that’s my 10 cents. 

[00:30:54] Juliana: What do you think, Dan, me being a host by best, sorry, I’m not used to being a guest. I’m so sorry. 

[00:31:01] Dan: No, I love it. It’s the best podcast I’ve done. I’ve done the least. It’s good fun. I’m no, I kid. I think for me, it’s like my, my world is very much in the kind of marketing measurement, marketing analytics space. So, I mean, the reason that I asked. I have to, to join this podcast is to give us that kind of diversity of voice because of he’s got the product background and experimentation angle.

[00:31:21] Dan: I’ve, I’ve never worked in a product team. I’ve never worked in product. And so like coming at it from that perspective, I’m here to learn as much as anyone else’s, you know? So I find, I find it fascinating. I, I, something that did strike me as you were saying that, because I think this is. If I dare to kind of broaden it out to more generic stuff, I think the stuff that you’re saying there about AB testing being a tool, you’re quite right.

[00:31:40] Dan: And I think immediately, as soon as you said that it made me think about generative AI, because people talk about generative AI as the thing. And they’re saying, we’ve got an AI budget. We’ve got, we need to do something in AI, but it’s like saying, I’ve got a spreadsheet budget, or I’ve got a Microsoft Excel tool budget.

[00:31:57] Dan: Like, no, you’ve got, it’s a tool. It’s a means to an end. It does stuff, but it’s not the thing itself. And I suppose, and I think that’s the same kind of thing is that like, you know, people say it, like I’m a gen AI expert and stuff. It’s like saying, oh, I’m an Excel whiz. Cool. Like good for you. Like what are you doing with it?

[00:32:12] Dan: Like, why, why are you bothered to learn this stuff? So I think, I think a lot of skills are. I think, I think we get the kind of blinders on a little bit and we get so focused in what it can do and the things we can do with it, but not actually doing it and realising that it’s a means to an end. I think if you ask any analyst, I mean, if any of our listeners right now, if you, if you think of yourself as an analyst right now, can you answer the question?

[00:32:32] Dan: How does the company work for make money? No. What do you sell, but how do you make money? Where’s the profit margins? Like what has to happen to be profitable? And I think that’s such an important thing and bringing it back to the kind of the impact that you can make. So I think that’s, that that’s my perspective.

[00:32:46] Dan: I think I’m just riffing riffing. I, what I ended up doing, Juliana there is I just keep talking until the question that I was asked is forgotten. And then I stopped talking and then other people jump back in. 

[00:32:55] Juliana: No, but it’s great. You reminded me of something that got me a lot of hate. So I was like, oh, this is so fun. So I have the video to prove it. So I was a super weak, right? And there was Kelly Wortham running a TOC workshop. And she had Julius from Analytics Mania. Had Piotr from PVPro. This girl from Datarama, I think, or something. Anyway, they were talking about tool and GenCons. Jen, I love you, Jen. Okay, so they had all these people to talk about tools.

[00:33:28] Juliana: And everybody was going on, Dan, GA4, BigQuery. And at some point, in a moment of me being fed up, I lift my arm and ask a question. So I said to them, basically, that they have a tool fetishism. And if you want to be a rebel, and I was talking, I wasn’t even talking to them, I was talking to the people in the room, and I took the microphone.

[00:33:46] Juliana: I said, if you want to be a rebel, take a business course. learn what’s a profit formula, learn how to write the PNL or read it. Be a rebel. Nobody gives a shit about these tools. Oh, and then you will see it on the, it’s actually on video. Embarrassingly not. 

[00:34:02] Dan: But do you think Juliana, do you think this is because of your sales background? Because if you’re selling something, you have to understand the profitability and the value that it can add, and you have to be in business. And I think a lot of salespeople, they end up thinking of it from a, cause you’re essentially responsible for The revenue streams coming into a business. So you are essentially part of that PNL line for a business.

[00:34:20] Dan: Now you’ve adapted that and you’ve moved to specialism somewhere somewhere else. You kind of have this experience. And I think a lot of people that come straight into the analytics world, they only know the world that started with, and it’s harder for them to abstract back out because I, I deal with them.

[00:34:33] Dan: I’ve always been the kind of the, the kind of technical salesperson, or I’ll be in the kind of technical account manager, whatever people want to call me, whatever situation they pull me into. But I’ve been part of that sales process and delivery process and stuff. And so it’s been part of my. Background from an early kind of career age to be part of a sales process.

[00:34:49] Dan: And I think that it, I dunno, I’m just wondering what your thoughts are. Do you think that that’s helped in this situation? Because it’s a unique, semi unique experience that you’ve got that other analysts might not have? 

[00:34:57] Juliana: I mean, it goes back to what Bhav said, you know, like basically when I entered analytics, I noticed that people only like, you would take a client, you do their GA4 audit, you tell them the corrections, and then you move on to the next line.

[00:35:11] Juliana: It’s very hard to build relationships like that and do upsells and kind of move the needle because me, Moving from small medium to scale ups to enterprise clients, I realised that there is a whole missing parts from data to the stakeholders, which is kind of the context and storytelling. So if people don’t value, you know, the work that you do, and I can give actually an example.

[00:35:36] Juliana: So when I, when I went back into the, when I went back with with MediaMonks and started working with this enterprise clients, I noticed that there’s a very big, you know, missing space there, which is context. And then as how does it, you know, tie to business strategy, to business goals. And this happens because mostly what, what, what happens in agencies, Is that the analyst is not pulled into the project from the beginning.

[00:36:00] Juliana: The analyst is the last person that’s going to be on boarded on the client. You have the sales growth people that do the sale. Then you have some people that, you know, like me that understand sales and can also do the work that might be on the pitch. And you have a PM and AM. And then the people that actually do the work are somewhere here.

[00:36:17] Juliana: So you sell this, everybody’s happy, make money. And then you give the work to the analyst. So the analyst doesn’t have context. Like he doesn’t understand how this business works. They don’t have, you know, like don’t understand what the client does. They just look at a deck. So this is the big mistake that most agencies are doing.

[00:36:33] Juliana: They’re removing the practitioner from the sales process. Very bad mistake. Secondly, is that I think we are fetishizing tools so much that we just think that tools are solving all our problems, but that’s why agencies, smaller agencies don’t grow. That’s why you cannot get the race. That’s why you cannot, you know, push it towards the career.

[00:36:54] Juliana: Like as an analyst, you either can be a very senior one, a manager, and then, you know, maybe a VP or whatever, but that’s it. But like, if you want to, you will only grow up. You don’t grow wider in terms of like knowledge, if that makes sense. So it’s very little stuff you can bring to the table. Like I have people, junior people in my team that right now, instead of doing analytics courses, I send them to the product marketing courses.

[00:37:20] Juliana: Because I said you cannot work in CRO or experimentation if you don’t understand product marketing. So instead of me telling them to go and take a stats course, I’m telling them go and learn what’s pricing and packaging. Learn what is messaging, learn positioning. So it’s a big miss and I have a blog article that I wrote some time back on my blog called business and digital analysts, which in it, I’m given a super crash course. Or marketing concepts and profit formulas and so on for analysts that are trying to kind of like grow wider, not just dollar. 

[00:37:54] Bhav: I was going to say on that first and foremost, it’s the problem about the analysts being pulled in last. I don’t think it’s just an agency problem. I’ve spent nearly 15 years in in house role, maybe 13 years in in house roles.

[00:38:05] Bhav: And This is a systemic problem in all organisations, whether your agency or whether you’re in house and the analyst is usually the last one with the exception of when I work at Gusto. I always use as the poster child for great collaboration because the analyst is in the room during the discovery phase, along with the UX person, product manager and engineering manager, and a growth manager or a marketing manager, depending on sort of like their business.

[00:38:31] Bhav: The, the, the, the problem. And so I think this is this, this problem sort of like stems outwards, but I do, I also agree. I, you know, and I love the fact I like this whole, you know, there is this view that people just grow up and not grow wider because. You’re right. I think, you know, I, when I’m hiring, I don’t look for, as I said to you, I don’t look for just, can you code in SQL, I, I try to find a way to answer the question, are you an idiot?

[00:38:55] Bhav: Right? And if the answer is no, then great, you’ve already got a fighting chance, right? Sorry, that’s a bit abrasive. I shouldn’t say that, but effectively, that’s what I’m trying. I want to make sure that I can put someone in any situation and they can control the narrative with data and influence the people in that room, whether it’s a junior marketing exec or a COO or a VP of product or, you know, whatever it is.

[00:39:19] Bhav: And, and I think this, this part is lost. And actually, if we bring it back to apps, again, apps is such an important part, because I think with app development, like you’re great at, you know, you, I, you know, I don’t want to use this conversation with you. Talk about the technical aspects of app development and app analytics.

[00:39:34] Juliana: We can if you want. 

[00:39:36] Bhav: No, no, we don’t, we don’t need to, cause you, you know, people can read about that. Right. Like, I mean, I’m definitely not an app analytics person. But but understanding the role your app plays in the overall ecosystem will prevent you from driving vanity app metrics like app download or hey just let’s get people to like move to the apps like why if they’re converting on the web and they’re happy why do we want to move them to the app right i had dan usually dan does a lot of good prep work and i’m terrible when it comes to these i’m to our listeners i’m about to expose myself dan is really prepared and i I think on the fly, but this time I had one question that I wanted to ask, which was, do people still use apps?

[00:40:15] Juliana: Yes. It’s a 6.4 billion dollar industry. 

[00:40:20] Bhav: And yes, you’re probably right. But the point of around this is if you don’t understand like the role app plays in your wider ecosystem. You know, app analytics, app marketing, app download, you know, whatever you want to do, attribution models. It’s going to be superfluous in the grand scheme of things so. 

[00:40:37] Dan: But the thing, the thing you forget, Bhav, is that a lot of marketing teams and web teams or digital teams have budgets they need to spend. And if they don’t spend them, they don’t get them next year. So if you’ve got leftover budget, you just got to build an app. Why wouldn’t you not want an app?

[00:40:51] Dan: And so let’s just go down that path. I’m working with a. Well, the wider measure lab is working with a couple of clients right now that are going into the app world. And, and I don’t think they’ve got a good reason for why they’re building an app, but it’s definitely not a cheap endeavour, not only because of the actual requirements to build an app native apps specifically.

[00:41:07] Dan: So like you’ve got iOS and Android, two very different worlds. You’ve got the implementation of the analytics and you mentioned back Juliana rebound, the MMPs as well. Like, so if you’re doing marketing for apps, that’s not Google analytics, whereas Google analytics is a marketing tool for web analytics.

[00:41:21] Dan: For sure, but it’s not for apps and you can’t do any kind of marketing with it. And so you need a different ecosystem, another tech stack. 

[00:41:26] Juliana: And you need to learn Google ads very well. And you know, web to app link and all that shit. 

[00:41:31] Dan: And it’s expensive as well. Like, okay, we’ve got to get the developers. We need to buy some licences and all that stuff just to run some ads, to run to an app that we don’t know we have.

[00:41:38] Dan: So I, I like your question about why, who uses apps, who uses apps? I mean, I. I don’t really know or care, like if it’s an app or not, especially like the kind of the kind of progressive web apps or stuff like that, or they just save an icon to my home screen. Sure. I’ll do that. Why the hell not like make it whatever solving a need and not making something up for the sake of it. Right, so it’s not just a tech investment for the sake of it. 

[00:42:00] Juliana: I’m giddy about this question. 

[00:42:02] Dan: Yeah, yeah. Well, what do you reckon, Juliana? What do people, I mean, you said, you said that there’s a big sort of financial incentive for the app space, but if you sell, I dunno, if you sell curtains and all of a sudden you, you sell them on websites and you sell them in in stock shops and all of a sudden they’re like, we should have an app because it’s a six point something billion dollar industry.

[00:42:20] Dan: What do you say to that? Surely there’s an element of like. People don’t buy curtains. They won’t install an app to buy a set of curtains. 

[00:42:26] Juliana: That’s awesome. Okay. I’m excited. Okay. So much. My ADHD right now. Okay. First, I’m going to give you one nugget on this. If I was the product manager, of a SaaS company.

[00:42:43] Juliana: And I have an issue with lead generation. I will want to go and explore other platforms or marketplaces so I can increase lead generation or, or increase trials or increase different things. So in a very big proportion of times, SaaS companies, for instance, We’ll go and create an app in on Amazon or other, or Shopify.

[00:43:08] Juliana: Shopify is the most used one. If you see an app that doesn’t need a Shopify if you see a if you see a SaaS that you really don’t think it needs a Shopify app, that is strictly a lead gen move. I’m sorry, but that’s the reality. I’m sorry, whatever. But that’s true. So you’re you would go there because there you you are struggling when you’re leading product or growth with acquisitions.

[00:43:32] Juliana: So you will go and explore different things and invest and whatnot. I’m not saying it’s not useful for, you know, a tool that, you know, has Shopify users to have an app if it makes sense. But yeah. Yeah. Most of the times you really don’t need it unless it’s some really, I don’t know, PNLish type of app.

[00:43:49] Juliana: Anyway, I digress. That’s the product answer and people that don’t want to admit. That they go to different platforms because they just have badly generation or bad trial numbers. Now, going back to the app ecosystem, it is a 6. 4 billion dollar industry. I will share with you a mobile app report for 2024.

[00:44:08] Juliana: It’s a very big industry. But not every business in the world needs an app. The only time you will do an app, you should do an app is if you do a bit of research before and you see if that app would have product market fit. And then is when you would invest, like you would start maybe with an web app, you wouldn’t invest in a native app.

[00:44:26] Juliana: Native apps are expensive, but you potentially start with a PWA or a web app where you can do a bit of research and see what’s the adoption. If it’s worth it, like that’s how you can test the territory. But if you’re selling curtains, for sure, you wouldn’t need an app. However, if you’re in the business of convenience, and more and more people appreciate convenience, when you say app, you don’t think about only purchasing mobile order and payment.

[00:44:51] Juliana: You also think about video games, you think about dating, you think about, I don’t know, maybe Squatcast has an app, because somebody is on the train and cannot join from the computer. So, like, it has to have a use, right? So there are a lot of people using have the adoption is mental, especially with video games, especially with dating profiles, but also for convenience for shopping.

[00:45:10] Juliana: Like people shop a lot using the apps. And I do think that here, problem that people, and this is where it gets interesting. So this is a classic disruptive strategy business case. So in this trap according to the disruptive strategy methodology and framework that Clayton Christensen came up with Love that guy.

[00:45:32] Juliana: Anyway, so now the other side of it is a classic disruptive strategy lesson. So in disruptive strategy, it says basically that when you have a business unit that operates in a way with people, resource allocation, and a profit formula, you cannot create another business unit inside that business unit.

[00:45:50] Juliana: They use the same people to do different things because you’re going to self-destruct, right? So this is classic self disruption. So when you, for instance, if you’re a web. If you’re selling curtains right now on the web and you have, you’re doing great. You have a team of people, you have your SEO, you have your marketing, your analysts, if you decide to build an app, if you do the app with the same people that you do the web, you’re going to fuck up.

[00:46:12] Juliana: So you’re going to self disrupt. So it’s going to affect your you know, your current business. So I always try to tell people that are exploring, going on apps. I asked them, do you have resources for this? Cause the resources need to be totally different. The PNL, everything needs to be totally different.

[00:46:26] Juliana: Like you cannot mix things together. So I think that’s why a lot of people find, you know, like, even if it’s a 6 billion industry, there’s a lot of people that fail within the first year because they don’t have product market fit. That’s why, if you really want to go and explore apps, start with a progressive web app or a web app that doesn’t have the same effort, that doesn’t cost as much to produce, especially since.

[00:46:49] Juliana: There’s so many tools right now that can do it for you and test the waters, have some statistical significance above and, you know, do do a bit of research before. Don’t just throw yourself out there. I don’t know. Did that make sense? 

[00:47:02] Bhav: It did. And it’s easier to track as well, right? So if you’re, if you’re in the early stages, it’s native app is as, you know, as we’ve discussed, so hard to track.

[00:47:09] Bhav: So stick it, you know, like a progressive web app will allow you to get your learnings earlier, cheap, like Adam at a more cost effective level. So for the record, anyone listening, I’m not anti app. I just like asking. 

[00:47:21] Juliana: No, it’s a good question.

Outro

[00:47:26] Dan: We are very quickly running out of time, but Giuliana, we’ve got a couple of questions left for you and then you can plug whatever you need to plug. And then you head off to all the super important work calls that we will have to do straight after this. So thank you so much for doing this for us.

[00:47:39] Dan: A couple of questions. We, I like to lean into the AI stuff, the gimmick. It is a program, a couple of questions around the content that I’ve read about you and some of the questions for you. So I’ve got three AI questions, then one for you. Me question. So first of all this is rapid fire and what is this is the most, what’s the most surprising thing you found when moving into the app analytics world?

[00:48:00] Juliana: Oh man, that’s a good question. Is that people are actually nicer than in web and the CRO folks in apps are less self important than on web. 

[00:48:09] Dan: Awesome. I love that. If you can, if you can give one piece of advice to someone that’s entering the app analytics space, maybe familiar with the web, what would you give?

[00:48:17] Juliana: Learn, spend time with developers, spend time with product people, respect their time, some silos are centres of excellence on their own. So you have absolute, if you go and bulldoze those guys with data, with random stuff, they’re not going to listen to you. So. Some silos, you should leave them alone because they’re all, they are their own centres of excellence.

[00:48:36] Juliana: That’s what happens with developers. So try to adapt to their you know, reality and how they work versus try to impregnate some stuff because you read somebody on LinkedIn that said, Oh, you should do this. Don’t read LinkedIn. 

[00:48:48] Dan: And the last question before we jump into the end what’s the what’s one common mistake you see people doing when trying to track 

[00:48:55] Juliana: They go into the GA4 interface and start creating events. And I want to die afterwards. It’s, it’s, it’s, just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. Yeah, there’s a lot of confusions between PWA, web app, and native apps. I wrote about that on my blog, explained it very thoroughly. Also very big issues with the fact that we, the way it was communicated in the community that you can use GA4 is not necessarily embedded in reality.

[00:49:22] Juliana: So, a lot of people tend to use the interface for creating events or conversion events, and those things don’t necessarily fit with how a app works, so you will probably work with very, you know, bad data if you think that’s the way. So, I would say again. Be friends with your developers. I think that’s my answer to all the questions.

[00:49:43] Dan: I love it. It’s great advice. 

[00:49:45] Juliana: Developers are nice. 

[00:49:46] Dan: One last question for you before you’re off the hook and and we can wind it down. So the last thing, yeah, for sure. The rapid fire, right? And so one last question, what do you do outside of work to wind down, to escape from all this stuff? 

[00:49:57] Juliana: I edit the podcast. No, because you were saying earlier. Yeah, that’s a good question. So you probably won’t expect me to say this, but I watch I watch the trashy reality TV I just like it. I mean I draw my line to Love Island. 

[00:50:15] Bhav: I’m glad, I’m glad you said that. 

[00:50:16] Juliana: I draw the line there, but I do watch a lot of thrasher reality TV because I don’t like to, it’s the only thing that stops me from thinking because, because I have ADHD, I have like 6,000 thoughts on my head.

[00:50:27] Juliana: So I never know what comes out of my mouth. It’s very hard sometimes to live like that. So that kind of slows me down. I also am a history nut. So like all the documentaries about history that’s, I’m there and I like aliens. And so anything with, you know. Yeah, I like aliens a lot. 

[00:50:45] Bhav: Check out my movie and TV list of show, TV shows and movies that all analysts, product managers, and CROs should watch.

[00:50:52] Juliana: Oh, I need to see that. Send it to me. Where is it at? 

[00:50:54] Bhav: It’s an, I’ll, I’ll share it with everyone. It’s an IMDB list I shared. I built and shared. 

[00:50:59] Juliana: Yeah, no, I like anything history and science fiction and yeah, but trashy reality TV, I must say. Yeah, and anime. I like anime too. I like anime too. So Jujutsu Kaisen and Demon Slayer. That’s, that’s my shit. Okay, I’ll shut up now. 

[00:51:15] Dan: No, no, thank you so much for all that stuff. I just wanted to give you my own suggestion out of everything. So I don’t know if you listen to many podcasts, but the Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History is like an incredible, it’s, it’s incredible. It does like, Three to six hour podcast episodes, deep diving in certain aspects of history.

[00:51:31] Dan: And if you’re into it, just stick them in and just disappear for a bit, go for a walk or whatever. It’s, it’s incredible. So yeah, Dan Carlin’s Hardcore Histories. Yeah, often like when you see a podcast episode pop up and you’re like three hours on that, maybe I’ll skip this one, but it’ll come back to occasionally on a long car ride or something like that.

[00:51:46] Juliana: I love, I love history. Like that’s kind of like one of my favourite things. But I guess, yeah, I don’t know. That’s, that’s, Oh, my fake background was about to fall, but I’m here. I’m nonetheless, I’m here. 

[00:51:57] Dan: Awesome. Juliana, if people wanted to get in touch or connect with you, how do they do? So anything you want to plug or anything else that you want to say before we close that for the day?

[00:52:05] Juliana: I mean, you can find me on LinkedIn. I pretty much live there. Don’t send me notes with connection requests because they’re creepy. Just say super creepy. And if you want to listen to my podcast or check my blog Dan is going to plug it in the episode notes. And yeah, that’s, that’s it.

[00:52:21] Juliana: Just, I don’t know. I don’t like to talk about myself again. Like I’m getting to the same like, I don’t know what to say, but I will be okay. I can promote something. I’ll speak at conversion jam in Stockholm. In October, I’ll be at the track and analytics summit in Hamburg in October, too. And I’m also going to be in London for SMX and measure for, and marketing analytics on, so you will find me there. And I might be in Dublin next month, but for this app event, but I’m not sure yet. Yeah, Mrs international. 

[00:52:52] Dan: I love it. I love it. Well, I’ll, I’ll plug all that stuff in the, in the show notes, as you said, and I’ll see you at some of those in London, I think. So I’ll be there. 

[00:52:58] Juliana: Yeah, I’m going to ping you so we can go and eat Indian food.

[00:53:02] Dan: Awesome. Well, thank you, Juliana. All the best. Thank you for doing this. Lovely to meet you and speak to you and enjoy the rest of your day. 

[00:53:08] Dan: That’s it for this week. Thank you for listening. We’ll be back soon with another episode of The Measure Pod. You can subscribe on whatever platform you’re listening to this on to make sure you never miss an episode.

[00:53:17] Dan: You can also leave us a review if you can on any of these platforms. We’re also over on YouTube. If you want to see our lovely faces and our lovely guest faces while we do this as well, make sure to subscribe to the Measurelab channel to make sure you never miss an episode as they come out. If you’ll leave us a review, that’ll be hugely appreciated.

[00:53:33] Dan: You can do that on most of the podcast applications, or that is a form in the show notes, you can leave feedback directly to me and Bhav. Thank you for listening and we’ll see you on the next one.

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