#106 What an ideal expert analyst looks like

[00:00:00] Dan: Welcome back to the MeasurePod with me, Daniel Perry Reed. I am a Principal Analytics Consultant at MeasureLab and of course, Bhav Patel, Director of Experimentation and Analytics at LeanConvert. This is episode 106 that we’ve just finished recording, this time solo. I say solo, we just didn’t have a guest, which is actually quite nice and it has a different feel to it, right Bhav?

[00:00:33] Dan: We just ended up talking about what a senior analyst looks like. This was actually a suggested topic that we found on, or someone suggested on measure Slack. There’s links to the conversation that spurred this conversation from someone called Ida on measure Slack. But Bhav, we just spent the last 45 minutes or so talking about what a senior analyst is and how you get there. So what is it and how do you get there? 

[00:00:55] Bhav: I mean, I think you should listen to find out. I don’t think we reached a proper resolution, but I think we agreed. A senior analyst role is one that is. a complex problem filled with twists and turns and it’s not pure technical development. It’s not pure Soft skills.

[00:01:12] Bhav: I know you don’t like that term. I don’t like that term either I prefer to use the term life skills And I think it’s that continuation and growth of that of that situation and trying to put yourself In a situation where you’re developing trust with your stakeholders who it will then give you more Ownership and accountability of things, which I think is hard to come by.

[00:01:30] Bhav: So it was a chilled episode. I agree. I think we should do this more. I love the fact that we took a real problem that someone had a question that someone asked on Slack and turned it into a podcast episode. It’s kind of like, Hey, we should do this more. So for anyone listening, drop it in the show notes, reach out to us on Crap Slack or Magic Slack, and, or we’ll just read through what you guys have said and turn it into a book post into a podcast.

[00:01:53] Bhav: Sorry. 

[00:01:53] Dan: Absolutely. So we’ll, without further ado, I think let’s jump into the episode. First of all, Ida, if you are listening, this is dedicated to you. I think we mentioned that beginning, but thank you so much for the spark of this episode, the kind of seed that created this, and then we found it a fascinating conversation.

[00:02:07] Dan: Before we jump in Bhav, is there anything going on in the world of bath that you want to plug anything at work that you want to talk about or anything else that’s going on? 

[00:02:16] Bhav: Nothing that I can specifically think of. As always join craps like follow us on. LinkedIn on Twitter, if you will, Dan and I are very approachable people.

[00:02:27] Bhav: And I just think people, more people should reach. I think if there’s anything I’ve taken away from this conversation is that reaching out to people is a good thing. You know, if you feel like you’re stuck and you just need a different conversation or you need to hear some thoughts, I feel like it’s always nice to reach out to someone who is completely removed from your situation and they can give you an outside perspective. How about you, Dan? What do you want to pitch? 

[00:02:51] Dan: I’ve got one thing, one request from everyone. I’ve been for the last couple of weeks, maybe longer than I expected to. I’ve been sending out a survey and I can respond based on what the definition of analytics is. And I think this ties into this subject really well.

[00:03:05] Dan: And what skills. Does someone need to be successful in analytics today? And I think the reason I have this survey and I’m doing this analysis is because I feel like the term analytics is so broad that we collectively assume it means something that I’m not sure anyone, any one of us actually knows what the definition of the word analytics really means evidently with the responses I’ve got so far that are actually quite varied and different.

[00:03:27] Dan: So please. Open the app, or if you’re on our website, have a look directly below the player. Click the link that’s in the show notes that says analytics survey. It should be the very top of that list and spend the next couple of minutes while we’re doing the intro to this episode, filling in that survey.

[00:03:43] Dan: It’s got two questions in there. And you can be as detailed or as broad as you like, please do it in the next couple of weeks at the time of recording. We record this on the 19th of August, 2024 on the O keep it open for another week or two, and then I’m going to close it and do the analysis and share the results somewhere. Maybe we can talk about it on a future episode as well. So please do that, otherwise enjoy the show.

[00:04:06] Dan: Okay Bhav, this topic actually came in from a listener. Well, I’ll say a listener. They weren’t a listener before we jumped in on measure slack, but they are now from what they said, they’ve now subscribed. So I do refer out there. Thank you for the suggestion. And hopefully this is going to answer some of your questions, but I’d put a thread or started a thread on measure slack on the blogs and podcast channel a couple of weeks ago at the time of recording.

[00:04:29] Dan: And I just want to read it out because it’s it’s given us a bit of an idea to have A bit of a discussion and for full transparency, we haven’t done too much prep behind this, but I think it’s something that could be fun to riff on. So let me just repeat what Ida says on Slack and I’ll put a link to the full thread if anyone’s on measure Slack, they want to jump in and read this thread.

[00:04:46] Dan: Then feel free to do so. I’ll put a link in the show notes. So they said I’ve been in the analytics game a little while now, but I’ve been wondering lately about what an ideal or expert analyst looks like. Something to aim for in my next few years. I’ve read some blog posts here and there, but a lot of them are aimed at people starting out in their career, as opposed to people who are reaching further.

[00:05:03] Dan: Does anyone have any recommendations? So there we go. That’s what they said Bav, me and you, and I’m not going to read through the entire Slack history on that thread because I think people can jump in there if they’re interested. But essentially I jumped in there saying a couple of things. You jumped in there saying a couple of things and.

[00:05:18] Dan: Ultimately, we thought it was a good idea to talk about it and maybe give either an episode of a podcast to be able to listen to, to get more of a reaction from us. But also I think it’s more broad, something I’ve seen in the analytics and being an analyst myself for, for many, many years, I even, you know, went through this or, and I’m still going through it myself.

[00:05:38] Dan: And I think it’s a fascinating subject, and know that you’re not alone. Everyone in this space is thinking and going through the same kind of thing. So maybe to kick things off, you jumped in with something interesting on a thread saying that actually there’s a reason why there’s not a lot of content out there. Let’s kind of start there and see where we go. 

[00:05:57] Bhav: Thank you. Yeah. So first of all, Ida, this one, this show is dedicated to you. I wouldn’t say dedicated to someone. Anyway, thank you for the great question. I thought this was a fantastic question to jump in on. I’m glad, I’m glad we did get a stop chance to first respond to you first and foremost, but I’m glad we were able to take the time.

[00:06:12] Bhav: to talk about this because it’s an important topic. And you mentioned on, and I mentioned on her post that there is a lot of content out there for starters and new beginners and people are entering the industry and analytics and data. And I think this is true for any industry. There is a lot of beginner content out there, whether it’s data science, product management, software engineering, you know, you name it.

[00:06:35] Bhav: It’s, it’s, there’s a lot of beginner stuff. So I think to start off with, I think understanding the main cause of why that is. And for me what I believe is the main cause of why there’s so much beginner content out there is that because I think the foundations are quite universal. When you think about like entering into any discipline, whether it’s product analytics, data science, software engineering, marketing, whatever, a lot of the foundations are going to be the most, you know, they’re going to be quite samey for lack of a better word, and you have to build on those foundations.

[00:07:11] Bhav: So I think it’s easy for people to write content about that because it’s so universal. And when something is universal, you can get better reach out of it. And there’s going to be a lot more people searching for it. So the more niche the topic becomes, ultimately just for you as a writer and a, and someone who’s maybe trying to build a name for yourself in the industry, it’s easier to go off to topics that have the broadest reach.

[00:07:34] Bhav: And there’s nothing more broader than entering the industry. So that’s my view on it. And that’s probably why there is so much content on. Beginner stuff I suppose and so and so little content, but I think the conversation goes deeper than that And I think that’s what we’re going to explore. What are your thoughts on this Dan?

[00:07:51] Dan: I agree initially I I just want to say I agree and It’s actually something that’s related to you I think if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while You know that I do training and I train people in technology like google analytics tech manager data visualisation and, and people have always asked me, well, people ask me occasionally why I don’t do advanced training.

[00:08:10] Dan: Why don’t I do expert level training in these tools? I class myself as an expert user in these tools, but actually training is relatively standardised. You know, there’s a, there’s a path of best learning, how to approach certain subjects, how to start using a technology to do the basics really well. But once you go beyond that, once you get into the expert and it becomes hyper specialised, And, and then it doesn’t make sense to train a group of people in exactly the same way.

[00:08:34] Dan: That’s where it has to become a bit more personalised or it has to become less rigid in terms of the agenda and stuff, it has to be a bit more malleable and flexible. So when I’m, when I do sort of like my training, it’s very much kind of like you, you can be fresh into this. You don’t have to have any experience because I’m bringing everyone along that journey of how to think like an analyst, how to do.

[00:08:53] Dan: The stuff that the tools allow, but going beyond there, that’s where we need to spend time together. One on one maybe even just to go into specific new use cases and nuances, because no two situations are ever the same. And I think that’s maybe what I just found here is saying, you know, if I’m getting started as an analyst, there’s loads of resources, like.

[00:09:10] Dan: How to learn SQL or you know, what best processes are there around how to use Python, for example, all these things exist out there. And, and let’s be honest, it’s relatively simple to write content for beginners in that way as well, because it’s relatively similar and standardised. But when it’s like how to do a very niche specific thing, you’re probably not going to get the clicks or the volume or the engagement that you may have had from a basic one.

[00:09:31] Dan: There’s less people trying to do something as niche as what you are looking for, and actually that’s where. You need to kind of do it yourself. Like you have to figure it out for yourself. You have to learn that for yourself. And maybe that’s you, maybe you end up writing the content yourself. You find yourself a niche, but generally speaking, the more detailed and specific you get or expert, another way of saying that is the less content there is out there, because you may actually be the first person to ever have asked that specific question or need to do something in a very specific way.

[00:09:58] Bhav: But I think this is where it feels like it’s a bit of a catch 22 because you’re probably not the first person out there to ask that question, but you probably are the first person to ask that question inside your organisation as you progress. And normally you look for support within the organisation because whilst you may not have the specialist support that you might need, you’ll get the contextual support.

[00:10:23] Bhav: So people will understand your problem better than anyone else. And I think this does go back to, and you know, I think this is the root cause of it. The main problem with writing content for that is hyper specialist. And I don’t want to say hyper specialised because actually it’s, it’s not hyper specialised.

[00:10:39] Bhav: The use case of it might be hyper specialised, but the approach, the analytical methods are quite general. It’s just that when people need them, it’s staggered, right? When you’re starting off, the needs are almost exactly the same for everyone. You need to learn, as you said, Dan, you need to learn how to code or write SQL.

[00:10:54] Bhav: You need to learn how to use Google Analytics. You need to learn how to build event tracking into GTM or whatever it might be. But as you start to approach, Like business context and you understand what’s going on. The needs then become very specific in that time. And, you know, like, 

[00:11:12] Dan: So let’s bring it back a sec, right? Because we’re talking, we were agreeing too much basically. And I want to bring it back into something where we can have a bit of a bit of a discussion around. So we’re, we’re both saying how there’s niches and et cetera, et cetera. But I suppose let’s, let’s start with a real idea of like, what is a senior analyst?

[00:11:32] Dan: Like what does a better analyst do differently to a junior analyst? Like, why is there such a distinction? And why do we put these labels on something like this? Like what, what is the real difference? 

[00:11:43] Bhav: Yeah, so I think that’s probably a better topic to go down. I think it touches more on what I was asking, which is what does the ideal expert analyst looks like?

[00:11:52] Bhav: And when I just says ideal expert, I’m assuming she’s, you know, I don’t, I’m assuming you’re still referring to an individual contributor, because I think seniority starts to split. As you get into that sort of senior realm, you have your IC path and you have your sort of head off and people manage part.

[00:12:09] Bhav: Now I’m going to make the assumption here. You’re talking about a IC path. That’s not to say you can’t go down the people, past and past later, but I think the senior analyst is, it starts to transcend things like skill sets and it starts to move into things like impact. And I think and the ability to influence people and understand the problem and find solutions quicker.

[00:12:32] Bhav: And I think, I think that’s potentially differentiate someone who we would quote unquote classify as a junior analyst to someone who is, you know, potentially quote unquote senior analyst. 

[00:12:46] Dan: Yeah. I mean, I agree. So the first thing is like the kind of technical skills will never, ever be completed. Your things always change.

[00:12:52] Dan: You’re always going to learn new stuff and actually you learn through doing. So there’s no way of like training technically and learning technical skills and then become senior overnight. But that’s not how, that’s not how that happens. I think for me, when I was reading Ida’s post, I think my initial reaction was there is no kind of line you cross and become an expert or senior.

[00:13:10] Dan: I think it’s so great. Like there’s no there’s no evolution into another role. I think unless your company does it based on pay salary scales or something like that. I mean, your job title actually is not relevant here. I think it’s about two things. It’s about accountability. And trust that they, the company has in you.

[00:13:28] Dan: So for example, if I need to make a business critical decision in, let’s say I’ve got a budget of a million dollars a month marketing campaign that I’m running, and I need to make a decision on 50 percent of it needs to go, which 50%, right? Like that’s a hypothetical. It’s never going to happen, but are you going to give that to a junior analyst, or are you going to give it to someone who has proven themselves who we can trust and has the accountability to make that decision?

[00:13:50] Dan: And we kind of trust it. In them to make the best decision in that matter. Now, the technical proficiencies of our junior analysts and senior analysts might actually be the same. They might be using the same tools. They might come to the same result, but I think there it’s about the scale of, of what you can do, the impact you can make and the trust you’ve earned in the business to be able to be given that question or problem to solve in the first place.

[00:14:13] Bhav: So if this is a question of trust, then let’s ask that question. How does one get to a point when someone is trusting them enough to be able to make that decision? Like when, when does, when is this golden handshake moment where someone recognizes that actually, you know what, Dan, you have been incredible.

[00:14:30] Bhav: Here is that hundred grand. And I want you to slice it in half and tell me which half I should get rid of this completely hypothetical situation you’ve made up. Like, how does someone get there? And how, like, you know, if you are talking about trust, What are the steps in building and, and I know I use steps very loosely.

[00:14:45] Bhav: I’m not saying it’s like a step ladder type situation where you climb one foot after the other. What, how, you know, what does trust look like? Is it a case of you understanding the business problems better? You’re understanding the needs of your stakeholders before they even ask them, do you understand them better than they are then you know, than they initially let you on to believe and do you understand the real, you know, the root cause problem potentially? So I guess I’m trying to understand. What is the handshake? What does it look like for you? 

[00:15:14] Dan: Yeah, there’s a couple of things in there. I think just to kind of pull them apart a little bit. I think the first one you mentioned there is around, like, you know, it’s really around the practical experience. Like your first thing you do at an organisation, even if you are whatever job title, you’re not going to be given this problem, this hypothetical problem to solve, right? You have to prove your way regardless of your experience outside of that organisation.

[00:15:36] Dan: You have to build that trust up internally to begin with, start with smaller, less. Fundamental or less foundational problems to solve and prove that you’re right. Proof that you can do what you’re saying, prove that they have a result, prove that you know how to work with stakeholders, that you understand the business, you understand what it is you’re doing.

[00:15:53] Dan: One of the things that I mentioned to either on the thread is like, you know, it’s industry specific. So how you become a. Expert or senior marketing analyst is going to be different to how you do that as a financial analyst or a business analyst or a product analyst, it’s actually a lot of the stuff is going to, a lot of the tools and the skills are going to be the same.

[00:16:12] Dan: It’s going to be the kind of industry knowledge. So like, I know that I can’t. Cut half of a cost in email marketing. That’s not how email marketing works. Okay. But I’ve got paid marketing. I can do that maybe over here. Maybe I have to think about the knock on effect of how that works, but the realities of not just the data says I should cut half of an investment here.

[00:16:32] Dan: It’s actually, is that possible? What ramifications would I have in thinking beyond it? So having, you don’t need to be sort of deep knowledge in the individual marketing channels in this example, but actually you have to have an understanding of whether or not what you’re suggesting is possible and the ramifications of that.

[00:16:45] Dan: Like, is there a knock on effect, a secondary or tertiary factor that you’re suggesting here, other than the data says this, so I want to bring that to the first thing. The first thing is just have you built up that reputation in the organisation? And I think a lot of that is through that kind of stakeholder management and that kind of industry awareness. So they’re the three elements I think to get that hypothetical handshake. 

[00:17:06] Bhav: So. I don’t want to say like disagree or disagree or agree on this point with you because I think you said roughly what I was thinking anyway but I do just want to bring it back to the point around industry expertise because I think what happens is that people get to this point where they go maybe too deep into one particular industry.

[00:17:24] Bhav: to the point where they’re unable to think outside of the box. And actually, if I think about sort of like my own personal career, and I’ve been very fortunate, I’ve never put my career down to sort of well, I I’ve, I’ve been lucky, but I’ve also worked very hard. But I think what really helps is for me, I’m, I try to put myself in situations where even if I don’t know the underlying situation.

[00:17:49] Bhav: So like a product or, you know, specific product or marketing, I’ve built up that trust, as you, as you said, Dan, that someone trusts me enough that I will go find the answer. And I think that’s the crux of it is that when you become a senior, you’re not necessarily expected to know everything there is to know, but someone will trust that you will go and find the answer to help them solve the problem that they’re having.

[00:18:12] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. I think having the, again, it’s that accountability or the confidence in the person. I think these, well, I really hate the term, but I think there’s a lot of the kind of soft skills elements here that are at play. And I think that’s so important, especially in a ever changing tech landscape, especially with things like generative AI, speeding up that process.

[00:18:31] Dan: Exponentially. I think when it comes to the soft skills, it’s going to be around things like, can you manage your own time? Like, can you prioritise your own workload to make sure that this doesn’t get undermined by some other less important tasks that you’re working on? And do you have good communication skills?

[00:18:47] Dan: Can you communicate with the people to make sure that if your suggestion essentially is, is, is making, let’s say 18 redundant or a bunch of, or an agency redundant, like, are you going to do that delicately and appropriately? Like, are you going to have conversations with people beforehand. So I think there’s a lot of elements here whereby the thing that I found with a senior person in the world of data is actually the ability to manage.

[00:19:11] Dan: Themselves and, and the process, the project, the task flow, whatever it is that you use better, manage yourself better, know your own limitations that you said, it’s not about having the knowledge yourself. It’s about working with the team and working better with the kind of tools and the access you have.

[00:19:26] Dan: If you are a solo person, there’s a lot more onus on you to be able to bolster out more skills or may be more fully rounded you don’t have the luxury of working with other people to kind of fill in some of those specialist gaps But I don’t think it changes dramatically. I think if you’ve got good communication, if you’ve got good stakeholder management, if you’ve got good prioritisation and, and organise it, if you’re organised, you know, these are assets that I see in senior people that you don’t always see in junior people that take some time to grow because.

[00:19:57] Dan: People don’t teach you this at school. People don’t teach you how to prioritise and manage your calendar. They might teach you how to use SQL and how to use data. Right. But these are, these are skills that maybe some people are coming into later in life, they’re realising, Oh shit, this is important. We need to make sure that I can reply to an email on time and not sound like a dick when I reply.

[00:20:15] Dan: Like these are things that you do have to learn as you get into the workplace. And I, for one had to learn that as well. Like this isn’t something that, you know, I inherently knew how to form a business email, like it’s just an unnatural thing until you start doing it. Right? 

[00:20:28] Bhav: Yeah. And it’s, it’s really funny because as you were talking about this, I was thinking actually, you’re right. Like maybe the focus when it comes to becoming a senior, cause I think your technical skills continue to develop. It’s not like one day you become seniors. Like that’s it. I’ve stopped learning. Everyone knows how to learn, but you start growing in different ways.

[00:20:43] Bhav: So your, your technical skills will still continue to develop because there are so many new things that are always being. about happening and new problems are always to solve. But I was as you were talking, I was looking around sort of like my desk because I have a whole, I’m an agent of chaos. I will never show anyone my desk, but there are a few things that have never moved on my desk.

[00:21:01] Bhav: And some of them are my post-it notes on my screen. And I’m going to read, read some of them to you because they’re kind of around this and I hadn’t really labelled them as senior topics. They were just kind of like serving as constant reminders. One of them is trust comes from saying you’re trust comes from doing what you’re going to say you’re going to do.

[00:21:19] Bhav: There is what’s the cost of saying yes. Do I need to do this right now? What can I offer? Does this have to be me? And I have relentless focus. Those are kind of like the top post-it notes I have. And I think if I think back to my younger days, I never would have had that. What’s the cost of saying yes.

[00:21:39] Bhav: Does it have to be me? Trust comes from saying what I’m going to say. You know, trust comes from doing what I’m saying I’m going to do. Oh, there you go. Dan’s showing his post-it notes. And I think And I think it’s from that mindset, it’s like maybe like actually seniority is about that shift in mindset.

[00:21:55] Bhav: So, okay, I think if we, if we kind of agree that at this point, there are aspects of yourself as a person that need to develop, that will really help separate you as a senior to a junior, they’re really, evidential, they’re easy to see, they build trust, they build reliability, they build all the things that we think contribute to someone who we look at as senior and say, you know what, I trust this person, they’re senior, they’re going to do what they say they’re going to do, they’re going to do it to a high standard, and they’re going to do it on time.

[00:22:25] Bhav: If we go back to Ida’s question, do you think there’s more in there? Because Ida was specifically asking about finding like content and What if we were to let’s say create content? What would that look like? 

[00:22:40] Dan: I I want to pull back again slightly Sorry before we jump into the content side of things because I think once we nail down what that direction is There will be content for it. So Or at least that’s my hypothesis whether we get there or not That’s the second thing so and so so the the first one is is going to be something that you you mentioned in the beginning Which is that or debunking the myth that to be You More senior, you have to manage people and that’s not, that’s not true.

[00:23:04] Dan: I think that like you said, I see individual contributors. I think defining that for yourself, do you want to be a manager? Is that something that’s likely to be in your future? Because that for one. Gives you a path to become a more senior, well rounded member of the team, because then you can develop those skills that way.

[00:23:21] Dan: And if that’s new to you, like it was for me a long time ago there are resources out there on how, how to be a good manager, what management styles, personality types, and understanding the psychology of teams and team management and teaming. So if, if management. Or line management or mentorship is in the future for you, then that is a good area for you to research and look up content around.

[00:23:43] Dan: If it’s not, then there is loads of stuff. And I think that if you’re going to focus on the IC and you always, you’re always an individual contributor, regardless of how many people you manage, or at least that’s the goal. My, my ethos is that you never forget how to do this, the stuff. But when you, when you’re on the individual contributor side, you’re quite right that the access to existing material is often harder to find inherently you’ll be out there, but I think that’s where networking.

[00:24:08] Dan: And mentorship comes into play. And I think building a network or joining communities and becoming, you don’t have to be a, like a social influencer, you don’t have to be a name out there, but joining other people that are in a similar position to you, or maybe where you want them, where you want to be, I think that’s a key part of this and learning from the communities, the meetups, the events, the online sessions, the webinars the YouTube channels, I think that’s That’s where I suggest. And I think that’s, you won’t find the content that you find the communities where the content will sort of bubble up in. 

[00:24:42] Bhav: Yeah. And I think there is definitely a learning mindset, but I don’t know if it’s strictly toward Taylor. Do you like, if you don’t have a learning mindset, can you ever develop as a senior person?

[00:24:52] Bhav: I don’t know. Maybe you can, but you’ll probably hit a ceiling very fast, especially if you want to go down the IC route. And it’s really interesting. You know, you mentioned the questions you have to ask yourself as you’re developing as a senior. I think when you are. When you recognize that you’re on a path that is headed towards seniority, you’re going to come across like constant crossroads.

[00:25:13] Bhav: And I think as a senior, being able to make those decisions and make those decisions without regrets are going to really separate you. Let’s, let’s, let’s take a hypothetical situation. You enter your first, you know, you’re approaching your first crossroad and that first crossroad is going to be, do I want to stay in IC or do I want to become a people manager?

[00:25:33] Bhav: And both of them come with. It’s like really good benefits and like trade offs as a really good benefits and things you’re going to learn and amazing journeys and experiences that are going to come along the way, but they come with trade offs and maybe as a senior, being able to make those trade offs and recognize them are going to be an important part.

[00:25:53] Bhav: So this is something that you’re probably not going to read about either. But as you develop down, let’s say you go down the IC path, you’re no one’s going to throw learning people, management, team dynamics, all the things that Dan was just talking about at you, because. You’ve clearly expressed an interest to become a specialist and you know, you, you specialise in that route.

[00:26:12] Bhav: And then let’s say you go down the other route, which is down the people manager path. If you go down the people manager path and Dan is again, he’s right, you will continue to learn, but your rate of learning technical stuff will start to slow down and your rate of imposter syndrome will start to go up.

[00:26:26] Bhav: And that’s going to be something you’re going to have to wrestle with and be able to overcome. And I see it so much day in and day out where people, managers who have taken, you know, they’ve either. Consciously or unconsciously gone down to the people management route, you know, whether they buy design or, or just, they just ended up in it, they find themselves in situations where they’re like, Oh my goodness, am I qualified to be a, you know, people leader?

[00:26:47] Bhav: And what they often forget is when you made that decision or you didn’t make that decision, you became that people leader, you started developing other skills. So again, I think it’s a really interesting point around. When you become a senior person, the types of things you’re going to benefit from, but you know, the trade offs you’re going to make and recognizing that, and I think self awareness starts to become a big factor of who you are as a senior person, because then you’re going to meet your next obstacle.

[00:27:14] Bhav: You know, let’s say you go down the IC route. Do you want to really specialise or do you want to generalise? And again, you’re going to meet a similar problem where you go down the specialist route. You know, you’re not going to solve different types of problems. But if you go down the generalist route, hey, you’re going to hit imposter syndrome again.

[00:27:31] Bhav: And that guy’s going to keep turning up. So I don’t know. That’s kind of like how I think about seniorities around those tradeoffs that happen. 

[00:27:40] Dan: Well, it’s, it’s, it’s the classic Dunning Kruger effect. Have you, I mean, I’ll, I’ll put a link in the show notes to this, but the more you learn, the more you realise you don’t know, and actually then it starts to peak.

[00:27:50] Dan: It starts to raise up the other side. I think when a lot of people are early in their careers or early into anything, this applies literally to anything that we learn. We start off and feel very confident that we know a lot about the subject that we’re in. And it’s only by learning more about the subject, the more we’ve realised that we don’t know.

[00:28:05] Dan: And actually the more time we have to invest in becoming a, you know, an expert or a specialist, the longer that takes. And I think actually it starts to kind of like bring up the other side. It’s that point really, where I think you can claim kind of expertise. Or seniority in a subject matter, whatever that, that means to you.

[00:28:21] Dan: And again, we’re not applying this to job titles here. We’re just saying like, you know, I would, I would class myself an expert if I’ve come the other side of that Dunning Kruger kind of curve I’ve realised, and I’m starting to be confident with my knowledge, understanding that I’m not an imposter, but also I don’t know everything.

[00:28:38] Dan: And I think that’s a real humbling experience going through that in any aspect. I have a, I have a hypothesis that I want to run by you, like, this is a way of how do you know if you are already there, because again, I’m, I’m detaching this from the idea of job titles, like you could be called, I don’t know, head of biscuits, you know, I don’t care what your job title is.

[00:28:58] Dan: But the, the thing with this is how do you know that my, my hypothesis, my, my theory, my thing I want to put a test with you is if the company you work at hires another analyst. Okay. And they ask you to be the buddy or the mentor for that person. I feel like you’re there. I feel like you have proven yourself.

[00:29:14] Dan: You’ve got demonstrable skills. You’ve earned that respect and trust within the organisation that they want to copy you. They want another one of you and they want someone to learn from you to kind of direct them on their journey. And I think that is a sign that you’re at a level where. I would class you as an expert or, or a senior or whatever you want to call it. What do you think? 

[00:29:34] Bhav: So I think, I mean, I think you’re right on this one. I think the only limitation with your, with that is that not everyone will have the opportunity to mentor and body up with someone or train someone. So I guess my, my not pushback, but my, my, my thought on this would be like, what are the, what other factors can you look for in yourself?

[00:29:54] Bhav: And you mentioned the Dunning Kruger effect. And I, I don’t like Pugmale and just because it’s No, I don’t, I mean, it’s, it’s, I just hear it a lot. It’s like, it’s like the aeroplane theory, you know survivorship bias, all those things. It’s just, you hear about it a lot and you kind of get sick of it.

[00:30:08] Bhav: But I will say that I think the Dunning Kruger effect is incomplete. The chart anyway, it’s imagine a, Like if you did maths, like a sine graph or a cosine graph or something like that, it’s repetitive, right? So imagine now the Dunning Kruger effect. You start off thinking you know everything, and you, you enter into that, what’s called the, what is it, the pit of, the pit of despair?

[00:30:28] Bhav: And then you come out of that pit of despair and you start going up, right? That’s great, but then you’re going to go down the pit of despair again. and then you come out of it a little bit better, a little bit wiser. So I genuinely think the Dunning Kruger effect. Now imagine a trending line that’s going upwards, the Dunning Kruger effect, so like it, it pivots around that upward trajectory.

[00:30:47] Bhav: And if you are on a path of knowledge and growth, you’re going to constantly meet this effect. And then, you know, you can call it positive, you can call it Dunning Kruger effect, whatever you want to call it. But I think that it’s, it’s never going to leave you. It’s just, you’ll have, you’ll start to generate self awareness and say, actually, you know what?

[00:31:02] Bhav: I don’t know this. I understand it conceptually. I want to know it better or I don’t. And I think being able to make that rationale as a senior person, saying, you know, I don’t need to know this. Someone else is probably better qualified to know it. And this is where I start to think, okay, is someone asking you to, is someone asking you to solve the problem through any means?

[00:31:20] Bhav: And that’s one factor. So you’ve got the bodying factor, I agree. If someone, if they’re hiring someone who can do your job. That’s like, Hey, we want you, we want you to move on something else and someone else can do your job. We at lean convert, I’ve been doing analytics training and this isn’t your run, like typical analytics training in the sense that it’s around tools and technology.

[00:31:40] Bhav: It’s really around critical thinking. So with the team, I’ve been doing this kind of week, a fortnightly session now, and I’ve also created drop in sessions for the guys to come and ask me anything, not because I have the answers to everything, but because I want them to be able to pose problems that we as a group can discuss, because there’s no point just one of us solving it, we may as well approach it as a group.

[00:32:04] Bhav: And so far, no one’s brought a problem to me, but I like throwing problems that I’m facing out into the wild and seeing what, seeing what happens. And actually what’s been really great is. People have come up with different solutions and they’re really forced to think about it and you can kind of see like light bulbs happening all over the place.

[00:32:22] Bhav: So I just point again, like, what does an ideal expert look like? I don’t know. But one thing’s for certain, if you can find yourself in situations where you’re talking to people who you consider to be experts, Then you can start to learn off of them. You can start asking them problems and hopefully they won’t give you solutions, but they’ll bounce ideas off you and give you a chance to do that critical thinking.

[00:32:45] Bhav: And I think the ability to practise critical thinking is one of the core, core factors of developing as a senior person. So, yeah, I feel like we’ve really gone in tangents on this side. It’s such a difficult topic to pick apart. And I feel like I, I really, I’m really glad I had to ask this question because it’s not an easy question to answer. 

[00:33:03] Dan: I don’t think there’s a right answer. Now for our long term listeners, it’s no secret that I like to run training courses all around Google analytics, tech manager, and everything in between. Check out a full list of courses over at measurelab. co. uk forward slash training to see all the courses and workshops that we have available, everything from Learning Google analytics for, to Google tech manager, data visualisation, and short for workshops to cover small specific areas of interest, such as user provided data, generative AI for data analysis, as well as lots of other stuff.

[00:33:30] Dan: That’s measurelab. co. uk forward slash training for all the details, or you can click the link in the show notes, or if you’re watching this scan, this QR code now.

[00:33:40] Dan: No, that’s the other thing. There’s no right answer. And you asked 10 people, you’re going to get 10 responses, right? 10 different perspectives. But I want to just, just touch on one thing that I just said in the actually as a response to one of your messages in there, Bev around I think you suggested something along the lines of find 10 people that are already doing the job you want to have and speak to them, learn from them and create like a bit of a, a network.

[00:34:01] Dan: And their response was something that was quite interesting, which was that I work in a small country remotely. And they don’t know 10 people. So speaking directly to Ida’s point there in terms of I, I paraphrase that. It sounded like it was more blunt than I think they made it out to be. But speaking, speaking from, from my perspective let’s say you don’t have A go to community or network and you don’t have these 10 people or a couple of people to surround yourself around, where would one go as an analyst?

[00:34:28] Dan: What would you suggest? If someone asked you that question, even if let’s say someone that works for you asked you that question, what would your response be? 

[00:34:35] Bhav: Oh, it’s hard for me to say that there’s nowhere for me to go because I’m, I firmly firmly believe there’s always somewhere to go.

[00:34:43] Bhav: I think we live in the golden age of information and. social networks and whatever you, whatever, there’s so much information out there. I would literally put it out there and I guarantee someone will step in and say, Hey, have you considered MeasureSlack? Have you considered crap talks? Have you considered this person or that person or LinkedIn?

[00:35:04] Bhav: And they’re not all going to be winners. But the idea that you, you know, you working in a remote country and you don’t know 10 senior people that for me shouldn’t be a blocker. I think if you really want to find someone, you definitely can. I mean, I had to ask this question and off the back of it, you and I both jumped into this conversation.

[00:35:19] Bhav: So. Right. You know, right off that one single question, which I did ask in a community. Can I just say of people who are really well qualified to answer this question? I think and you know, any recommendations on there and I’m sure like you and I could probably put either in touch with like five people each to get to that 10 and those, those five people could probably recommend five more people.

[00:35:39] Bhav: And then the network effect kicks in at some point, right. Where everyone recommends someone, and then you kind of have this network tree of people. So. I don’t know, I, if someone else said to me like, I don’t know where to go, there’s nowhere for me to go. I’d be like, I disagree. You just need to look a bit harder.

[00:35:54] Bhav: Sorry. I know that’s a hard, hard truth to face, but it, it, I, I don’t think the small country thing is a factor. And considering you’re remote, you should already be great at work, like finding answers to, to, to problems that you can’t go, you know, just go up to someone and ask at their desk. 

[00:36:10] Dan: For sure. Yeah, right. I, I, I just want to second that and say that you’re already on a community asking people how to do it. So you’ve taken the big jump and leap from the high diving board into the swimming pool. I think if I can suggest a couple more things for you, either I don’t know what country you’re in, but you’re going to be near loads of meetups like measure camp, like like a crap talks like marketing analytics summit, like a web analytics Wednesday.

[00:36:38] Dan: There’s going to be something in cities, in countries, in towns. Near you, accessible to you in some way. I will have a look. I would suggest having a look at meetup, having a look at these other platforms and search by your location and see what’s nearest there. The other option is, dare I say it, start one and see who turns up.

[00:36:57] Dan: Much like how are you bad, sorry, crap talks, you know, and people show up. It’s not pain free or effortless. You know, this is, this is something you have to work at, but there are existing communities out there that would welcome another one. There’s web analysts Wednesday. There is the kind like CRAP Talks.

[00:37:11] Dan: There is measure cams. There are other communities that you could kind of, Copy in terms of format and style, you can host an event on meetup for free. You can put it out there on social media for free. And I think that would be a good way to bring people to you. Start a community as well. I think these are incredible ways to do that.

[00:37:29] Dan: So yeah, it is a bit more of a dive into creating or facilitating a community of your own or local community. But there are, like you said, there are. Loads of virtual communities, virtual meetups, virtual sessions for you to be able to get to know people. I would also suggest finding, finding mentorship, finding people to be able to talk to about this kind of stuff on a more one to one basis.

[00:37:51] Dan: I know from lots of experience that that’s not always going to be someone in your organisation, especially as you become more. Senior within your organisation, there’s not going to be anyone else that’s done exactly your role before, not just in your organisation, but outside that too. So it feels like that, that meme or that cartoon where there’s someone on a train and they’re laying the track just before the train gets onto it.

[00:38:12] Dan: Right. And they’re kind of laying that path and you have to do that. Like you have to lay your own purple or pave your own way. This is not a well trodden path that many people have been on before. And so. You have to make that decision. Do you have to decide where you go and how you get there, but there’s people to be able to help, to ask for advice or suggestions and someone to bounce some ideas around.

[00:38:30] Dan: Those people are always going to be able to help, even if they’re not in your field of work or expertise, or can’t tell you what technical skills you have to learn to get there. So hopefully that’s some good advice in there. Is there anything else you wanted to add, Bab 

[00:38:42] Bhav: No, I think you’ve covered it. I was going to say, I think there’s a misconception that getting mentored or coached or, you know, having someone to look up to has to be in your industry.

[00:38:53] Bhav: I don’t think it does. Actually. Some of the best leaders I’ve had have not been like pure data people. They’ve been people managers, my, my first mountain. So there’s two people in my career that I will actually, I’m going to say three, three people in my career that I’ve really looked up to. One was Lee Farrow.

[00:39:07] Bhav: She was my first manager at Photobox. That’s not my manager at the photo box. She was head of acquisition and from her, I learned about empathy and people management and what leadership looks like, you know, in a very human approach. Then my second, sort of like the person I looked up to was at goldfinger.

[00:39:25] Bhav: He was a CFO at mood and he was, I was, he was my manager at the time. And. Whilst Ed is numerically minded, you know, he doesn’t, he spends more of his time in financial analytics as opposed to product analytics. And actually from Ed, I learned everything I needed to learn about, not everything, but so much of what I know now about stakeholder management, stakeholder relationship, expectation management.

[00:39:45] Bhav: I actually, owe him for like kicking my ego down a notch. I think I used to have this like gigantic ego that I would be like, I walk into rooms and oh my God, why doesn’t everyone know what I know? And actually it was working with Ed that I realised that you don’t have to be, I think he even said, he goes, but you don’t have to prove to everyone that you’re the smartest person in the room.

[00:40:05] Bhav: And then the third one is I work with someone called Bree at my current job. She’s one of the founders and her approach to things like process management and creating the environment has, has been, has changed the way I think about everything. And she’s kind of given me confidence boosts that I never knew I needed.

[00:40:23] Bhav: So, and none of them, none of them would I say have been in that leadership. Data, data leadership space. So, yeah, I agree. I think, I think that that’s a misconception and the whole thing around like virtual events and, you know, build it and actually Dan, what you said was perfect. If one doesn’t exist, build it.

[00:40:40] Bhav: I’m going to show my age, but to quote a field of dreams, build it and they will come and the people that will come will be exactly who you need. 

[00:40:49] Dan: Absolutely. I’d set up a meet up a couple of years ago and I had two people turn up and we had a great chat. It was awesome. It was a an afternoon in a pub talking about analytic stuff and it was great, there was three of us there that all three of us wanted to be there, right? 

[00:41:03] Bhav: And so that’s absolutely fine. CRAP Talks was exactly the same by the way. The very first event was me and about seven people. I didn’t even think anyone’s going to turn up now We kind of consistently get like a 90 to 100 person turnout  now.

[00:41:16] Dan: I remember our first formal meeting Bhav, was at a CRAP Talks, but maybe that was a long time ago. We don’t really remember, but you came on the pod, this podcast a long time ago to talk about how you started crap talk. So I’m going to link to that episode in the show notes. If you’re interested in how that started a community and why I’ll link off to that. There’s also a. Another episode we did with the founder of BrightonSEO.

[00:41:39] Dan: So I’ll do the same. So if there’s interest there in terms of starting a community then they listen to these two people that literally started it because they wanted to speak to like minded people and it all started very small and low key and has grown into what it is now. So yeah, I, I think that’s, that’s, that’s a good enough point to, yeah. To wind down on you. You were, you were about to say something. What is it? 

[00:42:00] Bhav: Was going to say, I feel like, I feel like we need to get to a resolution. So I agree. I agree with you in the sense that we’re, we’re approaching a wind down point, but I feel like, did we reach a resolution for Ida’s question?

[00:42:12] Bhav: Because let’s face it, this post, this podcast was for everyone in Ida’s situation, but largely it’s for Ida who asked such a great question. And if we go about like. If we go back to our original question, I said, I’ve been wondering what the ideal expert looks like. There isn’t that much content out there.

[00:42:32] Bhav: I don’t think there ever will be enough content. I think you’re always going to find new problems, but what reassurance I can give you either is that for all of the problems you have, I, I think people would have faced similar problems and you just need to be able to ask the right questions because whilst your, whilst there may be an abundance of.

[00:42:52] Bhav: Beginners and one on one type of content. There are those people who have written those niche product articles, niche marketing articles, niche, and it’s articles that will just give you enough to get you started. I think as a senior person, sometimes that’s what you need. It’s just enough to get you started.

[00:43:09] Dan: Absolutely. And, and I’ll kind of do my own sort of end of podcast spiel as well, my little summary. But I think And this is kind of thinking out loud for this, but I think, you know, when you’re senior, when the. Technical ability, your technical ability is never questioned. So it becomes less and less about your technical prowess and ability.

[00:43:28] Dan: That’s almost assumed or expected that you’re on top of that. You’re developing, you’re keeping up with the advancements. I think where, where the development is, is in a dare I say everything else, but it’s in the application, it’s in the politics, it’s in the. Team management, it’s in the developmental side, it’s in the mentorship and it’s that aspect of it.

[00:43:47] Dan: So I think, you know, when you are getting towards becoming a senior analyst, when people stop asking you about the technicalities, you know, they trust you enough to know you’re doing the right thing there. And actually it’s everything else that shows that you are kind of making waves impact and, and kind of playing the game, the game of business, the game of work, game of life outside of that.

[00:44:07] Dan: All right. Let’s wind it down at that point. Now we don’t have a guest to interrogate with any kind of questions or anything else. So I’ll wrap this up by just asking you, Bav, what’s going on? How are you doing? Where are you at? What have we interrupted you doing? So the time of recording this is a Monday afternoon.

[00:44:25] Dan: I’ve just come back from a week off of annual leave camping in the Brecon Beacons, but I’ll brag about that in a minute. But what are you up to today and what are you doing after this? 

[00:44:34] Bhav: So it’s still the summer holidays and actually one thing that has, one thing I have done to check off sort of like my to do list is I booked a break for me and my two boys, just, just the three of us.

[00:44:45] Bhav: This will be a first, like their first experience of a boys trip. My wife is working so she can get time off to come abroad. So I’m, I’m looking forward to that, but I’ve got a week of, I still got a week and a half of work to go before I wrap up. So what am I focusing on right now? A million different things, senior analyst problems. And I know we didn’t talk about job titles and it’s not something that I care enough about to talk about, but I am doing a lot of senior analysts work, which is very problem oriented. I don’t know what the answers are, but I’m going to be continuously looking for the solutions to my problems.

[00:45:21] Bhav: And I think I’m also planning CRAP Talks with you Dan in sort of like in the background. 

[00:45:26] Dan: Yeah, new CRAP Talks coming up soon. Hopefully if we can figure out a date, right? All right. And That sounds awesome. Where do you know? Can you say where you’re going with the boys like what you’re up to what you’re doing?

[00:45:35] Bhav: Yeah, so we had a very specific set of requirements that we needed and we are going to mallorca for five nights And we’ll be coming back the day before they break. They start school. So school starts on a tuesday for them So we’re going to go to mallorca for five five nights to just hang out by the beach hang out by a pool Visit the local sites 

[00:45:54] Dan: Oh, man, that sounds awesome.

[00:45:56] Bhav: For anyone listening by the way, they’re five and eight. So I’m absolutely crapping my pants. That’s what it’s going to be having such young children, just me and no reinforcements in the form of my wife. 

[00:46:10] Dan: it will be fun in a different way than it would have been otherwise. How about that?

[00:46:15] Bhav: Yeah, I agree. I’m really looking forward to it. 

[00:46:18] Dan: Awesome. Well, I’ve just come back from a week camping in the Brecon Beacons which is a very beautiful part of Wales, for those that don’t know. I whittled two spoons while I was there. I, I will maybe share a picture on LinkedIn or something like that if anyone has any interest.

[00:46:37] Dan: I have to, yeah, I’m forcing it now, but I yeah, just, it’s just a lovely time to disconnect properly. Disconnect. I have no notifications phone on aeroplane mode. Surprising how long a phone battery lasts when it’s on airplane mode. FYI, but other than that, I’ve just come back today. So I’ve been catching up and getting back into the swing of things, but feeling very rested and recuperated. So I’m feeling great. So yeah, I think that’s a good part for us to end. 

[00:47:00] Bhav: Actually Dan, it’s not because there’s, there’s one question that every single listener is going to know. Was it camping or glamping? 

[00:47:07] Dan: Camping. I was laying on the floor in a tent. I I, I walked lots. Between 20 and 30 K a day. I didn’t have any music, no podcasts, no technology. Well technology, no, no, no digital digital stuff. I had a little burner that I cooked. I boiled water for coffee and I cooked beans on, you know, I feel like I roughed it, but I loved it. It was a great fun and great experience sitting by a fire is all the entertainment you need.

[00:47:35] Dan: It’s something very primal about that. There’s something there that I don’t, very few people I’ve met actually don’t enjoy just staring into a fire assuming it’s not raining and barely cold or something like that. 

[00:47:46] Bhav: Roughed it, but loved it. I, that’s my takeaway. I think you just, I think that can be applied to analytics by the way. You know, when you’re not working with perfect data stacks, roughed it, but loved it. 

[00:47:56] Dan: Well, is there such a thing as a perfect data stack, right? Okay. All right. Thank you for listening. See you on the next one. That’s it for this week. Thank you for listening. We’ll be back soon with another episode of the measure pod.

[00:48:09] Dan: You can subscribe on whatever platform you’re listening to this on to make sure you never miss an episode. You can also leave us a review if you can on any of these platforms. We’re also over on YouTube. If you want to see our lovely faces and our lovely guest faces while we do this as well, make sure to subscribe to the Measurelab channel to make sure you never miss an episode as they come out.[00:48:27] Dan: If you’ll leave us a review, that’ll be hugely appreciated. You can do that on most of the podcast applications or that is a form in the show notes, you can leave feedback directly to me and Bev. Thank you for listening and we’ll see you on the next one.

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